It’s funny to hear that many people think that vertical ventilation is SO dangerous, yet the some of the same people believe PPV is the answer to everything. This video proves that there are dangers associated with PPV as well. It is unfortunate to point out that the reporter seems to know more about the hazards of PPV than some of the people who actually use it. Don’t get us wrong, we are not bashing the use of PPV, we are questioning the “use it on everything” approach practiced by some departments. We are not implying that the department shown in this video did that, we a simply using the video as the training tool they intended it to be. They should be commended for sharing this valuable lesson. Besides, listen to what was said at 3:48 in the video, because of what they experienced, this department changed the way they will use PPV in the future. Sometimes it’s more important to know when not to do something, then to know how to do something.
[flv]http://www.vententersearch.com/videos/flv/ppvmakesitworse.flv[/flv]
Video from KUTV Channel 2
99 thoughts on “And They Say Vertical Vent is Dangerous…”
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Great video guys thanks for sharing it with us. I am a big fan of PPV/PPA. As with everything we do their is a time and place, time to risk, time to let it go. I all boils down to training. Know everything you can about the job.
Long time reader, first time poster. Love the site. Thank you for your commitment to the fire service.
-huston “hosedragger that wants to be a truckie”
Like it….hate it happened but you gotta take everything into account….not going to arm chair quaterback it here, but we ALL need to start readin smoke just a little better and get back into the habit of poppin a few windows to clear some smoke and heat before pullin the fan off the engine.
I would love to see all PPV fans get removed from the fire service as a whole. I was in a similar situation once prior. For me, it just doesn’t make any damn sense to pump 10,000-20,000 CFM of fresh air into a burning building. As far as I’m concerned, vent properly and early..works just as well.
I would say that the department has went from one extreme to the other. By not having crews in place to monitor the ventilation there is more of a chance of uncontrolled fire extention. As a whole the fire service needs to remember why we have ladders and saws on the truck. Go to the roof and Pop the top
Keep it simple, break some windows. A little basic truck work goes a long way… PPV has its place and my dept uses it but it does not fit every fire.
What happened to basic ventilation practices? Maybe it’s just me, but it looks like every window was left intact while there was smoke pushing out of the eves. Even if they were going to use PPV, the pressurized air had no where to go with the building closed up.
as matt said… start reading the smoke. when they put the fan into operation there was still thick black smoke curling from the front door. this should have raised the concern of the fire not being knocked down and not contained to the one room. good truck work goes a long way. use your natural vents on the roof if you have to otherwise else take some windows. horizontal ventilation at the right time can do wonders. stay safe brothers. remember everyone goes home!
This trio should be speaking to every FD in the coutry.
Especially to Academy students. Reinforces that hoods are not to keep you warm when it’s cold out and as I used to say, “Only for basement jobs”, that conditions change in seconds, and to constantly be aware of whats goign on over your head. Thankful these 3 are still with us.
This is a great video to spread around,the more guys that see it the better. I think it could be one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment we have on the Truck if it is used blindly without thought. If it is a tool your department utilizes then we absolutly need to know how to use it, but just as important we need to know all the times not to use it. A disaster waiting to happen is the “get off the truck, place a fan at the door, and turn it in every time”. Just like vertical vent there is a time to use it and times not to.
Here is some good discussion that went on about this video after we posted it on our site.
http://ironsandladders.com/2010/05/13/ppv-and-rapidly-changing-conditions/
Keep up the good work Jimm
-Ryan
I will be the first to admit that I have made lots of mistakes on this job, thanks for this video but after watching it I couldn’t help but wonder why these other companies onscene would take the time to neatly place all their tools on a yellow tarp but not pull the meter or open up the rear.
I am a fierce advocate of vertical ventilation. Its merits are time proven effective. However, I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned that building construction limits the opportunities for vertical vent. Fires in wood framed structures built within the last 30 years are not good candidates for vertical vent. Lightweight wood trusses don’t maintain structural integrity long enough to ventilate vertically.
Good discussion.
Great posts thus far. I do not know enough and have not trained on using PPV as a part of fire attack, nor does most departments in my county. Therefore, I have no real comment here about when to use it or not. My only comment is when the fan was placed, the smoke color went through 3 different changes, and the fan was left in place. I have been trained that if i do something, and it has a negitive effect on the fire, I should un-do what i just did if possible. Thanks for the video, thanks for the lesson. Every day we need to learn something about our job. Glad the trio are still here to help us learn.
“Stay low, let it blow”
John
Saw this same video at FDIC this year, glad these brohters and sister are willing and able to tell their story.
When someone says vertical vent, I usually think “roof”. On a basement fire, venting the roof isn’t going to be real effective. Also note the above comment on light weight construction. The exhaust point for PPV should be opposite the fire from the fan; you need to give the positive pressure someplace to go. Choices for exhaust points may be limited in a basement.
Fire Engineering ran an excellent article a couple of months ago on PPV/PPA. It was part of the Fire Engineering University series. Check it out.
It’s interesting that this TV station is from Salt Lake City, home department of Kris and Reinhard, two big proponents of PPA. Their website is PositivePressureAttack.com.
My department doesn’t use PPA, but we do use PPV… sometimes.
I’m glad to see these three made it out unscathed.
One positive to look at is the fireground communication in this video. You know exactly where the crew is, the conditions they’re facing and where they are going.
This could have easily turned into a major cluster with a second crew going in another entrance to look for these guys all the while they’ve bailed out a window.
I hate to see events like this but it’s great we’ve got videos like this to learn from. Thanks guys
agree with the above comments. Also this is a baement fire with no outside access that I saw. Where’s the positive pressure gonna go with no way to get out?Yep down the interior stairs and back up somewhere. In this case the wall. Time and place for PPV and vertical ventilation. Kudos to these folks for sharing for all of us to learn. Also they didnt panic they knew they were in trouble called the mayday and looked for a way out and got themselves out of a bad situation.
PPV can be useful but I am surprised no one has said anything about overhaul. Good truck work also involves opening up the fire area to check for extension. Opening up the walls and ceiling in the fire room before implementing the PPV, or alot of vertical or horizontal ventilation may have given them more of a heads up that the fire was still active.
It is good to hear that they made it out of that without injury. Stay safe everyone.
Uh, well, 1. determined to be basement what are you accomplishing by using PPV through the front door.
2. SOPs and use of PPV are a misnomer. Common sense trumps the SOP (should)
3. PPV primary use on high rise stairwell pressurization (very effective)
4. Most common mistake I see on fire attack around the country is to take a line “around back” when fire is showing in the front. We are usually taught fight fire from the unburned to the burned/burning side. This is also a misnomer. The difficulty in placing a line through gates,fences, delayed forcible entry in the rear and increased stretch makes running a line to the rear more problematic than we anticipate. Second, stairwell in or near the front door (usually). The need to protect the stairwell is accomplished by knocking the fire down nearest to it. Third, aggressively moving through the front applies H2O closest to where it needs to be. End of story, IN THE MAJORITY OF TIME. Line through the front door.
4. Good vid and good good comm.
Noz, Capt DCFD and volly PG, MD
Too funny,, I did our company drill last night on reading smoke.. I use this clip at the end on why we need to read smoke and what can happen if you are asked to vent and not bother reading it!!! PPV fans have a place just as much as the rest of the tools we carry, god forbid we should (and hold your breath for this one) FRIGGAN TRAIN on the equipment you carry!!! Know how to read building construction, know how to read smoke, and for the love of god drill on what you do and carry on your rig!!!! If you were in a situation like this I suggest re-evaluating you and your department’s procedure on when, how and why to vent. I am not perfect nor is my department but have a clue,,, thick, turbulent smoke pushing from a open door come on ?
Another example of why PPA or PPV in attack mode is the most dangerous thing to enter the fire service in decades. If you use PPA as a tactic it must be 100% coordinated, 100% of the time with the right circumstances 100%. We are going to loss or burn our guys at this rate. Thanks for sharing. Get fire dynamics, reading smoke and tactical vent training. It will save your life!
I do not believe it was a positive pressure attack, it appears to me and I may be wrong that it was a pre mature call and improper vent like has been said on previous post.
Why did noone suggest using a T.I.C. b4 they used PPV? Maybe they would have found the hidden fire bcuz noone can see through drywall as of yet.
As a few others have stated, don’t let this video ruin your perceptions of PPA. This was implementation after the fire was believed to be extinguished. While it’s a great reminder of considering when we’re using PPV, it’s a bigger reminder that you MUST complete overhaul.
Use of a TIC in a situation like this is great, but good luck finding a fire in its beginning stages that’s contained to a wall cavity. Until the wall is bare to only unburned material, especially vertically you can’t be sure of extinguishment.
As has been said several times, there’s insufficient exhaust in this case. PPV doesn’t seem to be a good candidate for the space unless there’s large, direct access to the outside (i.e. Bilco door). Seems a smoke ejector could do just as well in this case.
But please….do not let this ruin your perception of PPA. Immediate bashing of theory without consideration for the science behind it is the reason we haven’t spread it farther already.
nice suggestion on the T.I.C. that along with your irons should be the first tools off the truck.
OK first off that was an Epic Fail by this department. If they wanted to vent, they could have opened windows on the C side (or 3 side) and the fans aim OUT the door. The key is also to use the T.I.C. and check for hidden pockets of fire before you go to guard down mode. Seems like they were making a great attack and knocked stuff down. Then it was just throw a fan in the door and let er rip. I am a fan of vertical and horizontal ventilation. When done early and done right it makes the whole thing go alot smoother.
Great stuff. The fan was definitely engaged prematurely. Once you have found the fire origin and extinguished it, use the TIC, and IMMEDIATELY start pulling wall and ceiling and check for extension. Fire is always gonna try to go somewhere else, especially in the basement. Looks like someone got ahead of themselves, and was in a hurry to clear the visibility and heat to make interior conditions easier to work in.Very glad they remained calm and are not another statistic.Setting the fan up that early just corked a sealed container and pressurized it.Also hard to vertically vent a basement fire. not a bad choice just wrong time. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN, that goes for the guy giving the commands on the fire ground also….
we have all been so busy comenting on this video, did any one take the time to read this post
“nick July 12th, 2010 2:50 pm
I will be the first to admit that I have made lots of mistakes on this job, thanks for this video but after watching it I couldn’t help but wonder why these other companies onscene would take the time to neatly place all their tools on a yellow tarp but not pull the meter or open up the rear.”
here goes the pull the meter discussion
Just had to mention it, bulldawg, didn’t ya?
I was trying to leave it alone, so I wouldn’t get made fun of for not being a real firefighter.
This could be like the perfect storm…PPV and meter pulling?!
the last time we used ppv, the latex glove that we keep the fan in melted and made a hell of a mess on our fan
“Fire investigators say they did nothing wrong…” WTF!!!! How about charging an atmosphere that was too lean to burn with pressurized air effectively causing an explosion of the combustible gases that led to full flashover? Fans will NEVER replace a well trained and proficient truck crew. What ever Chief officer permitted that fan to be placed into operation should be fired – no questions asked. Seriously.
I simply cannot overstate the obvious enough… Pressure inside fire buildings is BAD. Adding oxygen under pressure (at floor level)to a superheated atosphere full of burning combustibles will produce the same effect EVERY time.
Please think about the victims we are supposed to be saving. The idea that the fan should go in before the primary is complete is totally unacceptable. Too many departments have adopted the “fan-fed” attack. PPV and PPA have uses, but this craziness over how dangerous roofs are is insane – and lets face it, that’s what this discussion always boils down to.
I’m always amazed at what our brothers were able to accomplish when suppressing fires years ago without the added benefit of all the “stuff” we have now. Through their sacrifices and lessons, they reinforced what Tommy Brennan taught us all – “Make the building behave!”
Proper ventilation is essential to every interior fire attack. Fans cannot read changing conditions or guage the benefit or consequence of their application. They are loud, very powerful (sometimes like in this video too powerful), and create a significant obstruction at our primary points of ingress and egress.
Hey I know that everyone is focused on the PPV stuff.. but what happend to operations. I think there should be a back up line in place before these guys even tried to make the stairs on a basement fire. If it was so banked down how do you know the steps were not burning? Was there a second way of egress? Was there any windows in the basement that could have been vented before messing with the PPV and I think a few said it what good was it doing on a basement fire anyway. Where is the truck checking for exptension upstairs this is a basement fire where do you think it will go? I think there was alot to learn from this video. But I will say there was very good communication..
JL
wrong use of ppv fan killed a brother in mass 5 years ago, in a basement too
The key theme that keeps getting missed, is what was mentioned in the last line of the post…”know when or when not to do it.” People keep focusing on why PPV/PPA is bad or why vertical is bad. What we need to focus on is the why and when to use each tactic. If we study and understand the purpose and implement the appropriate tactic based on conditions, these arguments will become moot, and we can go back to arguing the finer points of leaf blower use on RV fires.
It is quite obvious that the PPV fan was the catalyst for rapid fire spread and eventual flashover. What is disturbing in this scenario is the lack of tactics implemented by the forces on scene. The first due crew did exactly what they were supposed to do. Locate the main body of fire, confine it, and begin extinquishment. Unfortunately that is where the tactics stopped. As we all know, the engine company has to be supported by a ladder company that is simutaneously accomplishing the needed functions to achieve complete extinguishmnet.
1. Read the Smoke
2. Roof-Hole
3. Window-Out
4. PPV-Leave it at the station. They have thier place.
Glad u guys got out ok
Bulldawg whats the pull the meter discussion?
I have been in the service for 27 years and was around when ppv were introduced to the fire service. There were alot of individual tests done and some departments rolled with it as a useful tool while others did not learn enough about it and abandoned the use of it all together. Rescue and hazmat was the primary tools of training in the 80s and 90s and then sparked the great training subject of RIT. Ventilation is so misunderstood and not used properly, it is ridiculous. Ventilation is used to remove heat and smoke from the structure as well as provided better conditions for the firefighters. The fan used prior to the firefighters going in, might have shown the hidden danger before they entered. The fan then could have been turned off or the structure opened up more effectively to prevent the turbulent heat and smoke that was created. The department did a great job keeping their composure and staying focused as well as the firefighters that were in a deep seated fire and removed themselves from the danger area. Let us not throw stones at the tool but look better at how it was used. If you try to hit a nail you are holding with a screw driver it might stick you. Is it the screw drivers fault you didn’t use a hammer?
nick,
check out the archives…..it’s a running joke on here
Please go to the NIST website and the study on PPV. It does have a place and they prove it. But it needs to be at the right time.
http://www.fire.gov/PPV/index.htm
Yeah, I have heard you guys mention it before I looked at some old posts but couldn’t find what I was looking for. Sorry to change the subject I just want to be informed how some of you feel about pulling meters.
Don’t get fooled by adds in fire engineering and other trade magazines. PPV has no place in interior attack….risk vs benefit…the studies done that show it can help are done by companies that sell fans…don’t get fooled into thinking it’s a tactic. The only tactic here is to sell more fans. Keep them on the truck until it is confirmed that the fire is extinguished fully.
Nick…i think the general consensus is ….leave it to the power company
I am also not sold on top side (vertical vent) in this scenario of a bsmt fire. I think the manpower could be used elsewhere more effectively. Any thoughts?
I would like to say that i am not a fan of using a PPV to help clear out smoke at a working fire. Thats why we have truck companies to vent the roof (depending on where the fire is) and to break windows, not only to get smoke out but as a way of egress. I saw a full video of this. I dont understand why you would go into the basement that is on fire with an un charged hose line and second of all why wouldnt you try following the hose out first before trying to locate a window or door. With my fire company and plenty around us it is in our SOG’s and that you dont take the line in dry to a basement fire.
The fan thing bugs me at fires because you never know the fire is out until you open up the place and get in the walls. Second of all if you arent comfortable working in smokey conditions maybe its not for you. I would rather not be able to see very well and be able to read the smoke and feel heat to determine what is going on and if there is still a fire.
From my prospective things that didnt go right were taught in essentials but not everyone has a full working brain in a fire. Ive seen a lot of people get tunnel vision or they simply freeze.
****Sorry if my opinion bothers you, but its how i feel****
I have not read all the comments so I may be reiterating what others have said but I feel I need to put my 2 cents in… I was not there so i am not fully aware of the circumstances. Thermal imaging is the best thing that has ever happened to the fire service. It should be used in situations like this more than anything else. I do realize that the exterior construction of the home may have obscured it to an extent but basement vents (windows etc..) could have been utilized if they could have been opened. Also this is the perfect scene to perform vertical ventilation. The amount of thick, dense smoke seemed to just scream “someone open a window”. It saddens me to see that fire departments are getting away from the art of roof venting. But having said all this, these firefighters did what they were trained/supposed to do and did it well. I applaud them for noticing climate changes and reacting without second thought. They are lucky to be alive, but luck wasn’t the only factor in their survival.
Good Job Guys (and Girl). Keep it up and always rely on your training!
Stay safe everyone!
You CAN go to the roof on a lightweight truss roof especially if there is no fire in the attic as appears to be the case here. Trade space for time. Just because one truss fails does not necessarily mean that every truss is going to fail. Throw multiple ladders to the roof, proactive laddering, and leave yourself multiple ways off of the structure. This being a one story house,it would have taken a well trained truck company minimal time to get on the roof and cut an effective vent hole. If its not safe to have crews on the roof, then its not safe to have crews working under the roof either and we might as well go defensive from the get go. Last time I checked though we were also in the business of property conservation. We owe the interior crews the respect to give them an accurate and good report on roof conditions. Inspection hole, good sounding techniques, walking the load bearing exterior walls, and a properly trained and compentent saw operator would have made this a fast and effective operation. Knowledge of building construction, training, preplanning, and dont let the day of the fire be the first day that you walk a roof are essential here.
Several people have hit on some great points that I won’t restate. I will say that if you get caught up in saying “Always” and “Never” in this job, it’s gonna bite your ass. Always vent the roof, never use PPV…that thinking pigeon holes you into turning off your brain and using tactics that may not suit the situation you are facing because, “We did it like this on the last 50 fires and nothing went wrong.” That attitude is ignorant and complacent.
PPV has it’s place, but nothing is gonna ventilate a structure better than a well place hole above the seat of the fire. Anyone who argues with that needs to go back to the academy and re-learn basic fire behavior. That being said, there are times when vertical ventilation won’t work due to location of the fire, access to the roof, condition of the roof etc… however, by and large, vertical ventilation will adequately ventilate almost all of the fires we fight. For those of you who are relatively new to the site, read this post from way back: http://www.vententersearch.com/?p=183 Jeff did an outstanding job of stating Why We Do What We Do.
This brings the question, what do we do when you can’t go to the roof and PPV is not an option? Well, I guess a buttload of Donkey Kicks are in order.
Is anyone else having a hard time with venting the roof on a basement fire. Why are we going to waste manpower on the roof when they could be providing other key truck functions. Wouldnt horizontal ventilation be the move hear?
What’s with just knocking down the fire and leaving??? Do we not check for extension anymore? Of all places not to, a basement where numerous open channels exist?
Glad every one made it out. Like most of us fires are down and we forget the basic stuff. TIC left on truck tool,hoods,radios, over hall a 2nd line for back up or to protect are way out, stuff like that kill and get us hurt, who’s fault is it? we just have to look in the mirror. Looks like they got a quick knock down and let they guard down a little. I see three FF in the video but no officer? Would that have made a difference? Who knows but another set of eyes would not hurt. If an officer was in the group he should have asked for a truck company to open up the room and vent what ever had to be vented, or at least look for hidden fire. As for PPV they have a place as some one said earlier at the bottom of a stair case in a large complex.
Paul,
I have no problems with topside ventilation on the job in this video. From what I could see, the area the fire was located seemed level, with no major issues to access the building from all 4 sides… but I was not there.
Many will say that top side vent is not applicable if the fire has not made it into the cockloft. Any good truck crew understands the necesity of reading the building and figuring out where the fire is now, and where its going to be in 1 minute, 2 minutes, etc.
The color, density speed and turbulence of the smoke seen exiting side A (or 1) clearly indicated to me that if the fire was not fully extinguished within the next 3 to 5 minutes, the interior forces could easily be overrun. Correct topside ventilation would have given all that heat and air born fuel some where to go…outside. That in conjunction with coordinated attack and o/v would have helped these guys out tremendously.
Not everyone has trucks right around the corner. But that is no excuse for the lack of good and proper vent. The very idea of putting the fan up to see where the fire is then going in to extinguish it absolutely works AGAINST any victims inside. In this case, VICTIMS almost meant our guys too.
I still think opening the roof at a bsmt fire is a waste of resources.As you stated laddercompanies are often at a premium, and what is thier manning going to be like. I firmly believe that the manpower is better served performing interior truck operations in conjunction with extinguishment.Forcible entry, fire location & confinement, primary search, extension & overhaul. I think horizontal ventilation would suffice in this and most residential buildings of this nature, unless the fire is located in the attic we dont generally open the roof.
Watching the video, and seeing how this is a ranch house fully leads me to believe that extension into the first floor was occurring, or had occurred. I feel that a vertical vent would have been appropriate..even if to just create a chimney.
The extension occured mainly because the main fire area was not properly opened up following initial knock down. It was increased by the introduction of the PPV fan. If the first due ladder company had been in the basement to open up following knock down the outcome would likely of been different and the fire contained to the room of origin. My question remains, what are the feelings of vertical ventilation for a lower floor fire (other than the attic) at private dwelling fires. Should this be a priority for the first arriving ladder company in lieu of other critical interior functions. If so why do consider this a priority. Great discussion!!!
The problem is Ryan what then becomes the chimney? basement stairwell? interior hallway? I’d generally recommend against ventilating a full floor above the fire,especially a basement fire.I cannot see any basement windows during the video which means the location of the fire within the basement is anyones guess.By vertically ventilating you change the pressure within the structure and this will in turn significantly change the air track,which is fine if you are certain of the location of the fire and can in turn open up accordingly.But just opening up the roof without knowing the fires location in the basement could put the interior teams in almost as much peril as pumping 20,000+CFM of fresh air into the mix.My opinion-have the initial truck crews in tandem with engine crews and TIC aggressively open up 1st floor and horizontally ventilate.
Just a war story. My 1st structure fire as chief was a residential where the service was back-charged due to storm damage (everything 220v lit up). The only TIC was 15 minutes away. One of the MA depts suggested using their new ppv to “flush out the fire”…GOD am I glad I didn’t listen to him!
I would like to see the raw video not the tv edit. I trust my eyes more than the talking heads. I have a feeling they missed alot on the way to the basement and outside when the fan was called for
Tic,Fan,Axe,Saw,Ladders all tools on my truck. I wouldnt remove any of them. We use them all.
what do you guys thing about cutting a hole in the first floor right in front of a window and using the fan to blow it out the window?…I’ve never done this but I would definetly want a hoseline very near by
MFD Roof, I completely agree, you make a very valid point there. What I was driving at was, after the fire had moved to the first floor, to open up the roof, not before that though. The layout of the house as well leads me to wonder if this is your typical ranch style, with the usual stairway in the kitchen, with the back door at the top, and then one into the kitchen, or if it was outside access only.
Quite honestly, if I was on the first due truck, I would have just vented horizontally without the fan. Or used a negative pressure fan in the kitchen window at most.
Ryan,
Are you suggesting that you would vent the roof at this fire based on the fact that there was extension to the first floor as a rule of thumb, or based on the amount of fire following the introduction of the PPV. I dont see why we would vent the roof in response to extension from the bsmt. I feel the manpower would be better served opening up where the fire is extending. If the decision to vent vertically is based on the conditions following the introduction of the PPV,Im wondering if Vertical Venting would even be practical as this more than likely turned into a defensive operation
I guess, if I would have arrived to find extension through the first floor, given the same house, I would have probably tried to locate the area of extension, then open above it..only because of extension into the first floor. Otherwise, I would stick with aggressive horizontal venting. I would agree that an O/V position, with at least two additional members going to the basement to assist with opening up would be the best thing.
For me, should we have known extension into the first floor, and judging by the video we see, it may have been a large amount, venting over that to me seems the best approach as that way we are going to prevent it from further spreading throughout the structure. But, I may be completely wrong. I know there are far more advanced truckies here. I’m here to learn.
What about RECEO? Exposures and confinement – you’d never want to open up a chimney through a room that isn’t involved and spread the fire. Venting should never encourage gases, smoke and fire to move into unburned parts of a structure. This is basic firefighting.
What about cellar nozzles through the floor? A window would be better, but it didn’t appear there were any. Keep the fire confined and extinguish it, and keep FFs out of the cellar if possible until the fire is knocked down.
FF_AU1, As I said, I’d only open it up, if the extension is well through the floor.
I have RECEO in mind while thinking about this, and once the extension has moved into the first floor, and we don’t manage that, we are now defeating ourselves by letting that go unchecked.
I think you need to be a little proactive, open up the roof. If its needed then its already done, if not its an easy repair if done right. Being reactive is putting more firefighters at risk, placing them on the roof with fire in the attic. Do the vent job early before the trusses are being attack by heat and fire. Be safe brothers. great learning video.
Ryan,
We are all here to learn from one another, there is no one who knows it all, and there is certainly many ways to do things. We need to always believe fire has extended and take the appropriate actions to deal with it. This usually involves assigning members to open up and expose the area directly above the fire and calling for a line if deemed nesecary. Vertically venting a well involved 1st floor may actually cause the fire to spread to areas previously uninvolved.
Carl being proactive is great but we need to focus that activity where it is needed most and will have the greatest positive effect. As we have already heard, random vertical venting can have a very negative effect on the fire. More importantly random vertical venting as a rule of thumb takes significant mampower away from engaging in other, possibly more critical functions in the early stages of a fire.
I was not thinking of random venting, perform a size up, when you determine the location vent. With a properly trained crew this does not take very long.
I agree with not venting the roof if there is no fire in it. Horizontal is much more effective. There is a way to ventilate basements with small windows or none at all. Locate the outside walls closest to the fire either by TIC or interior crews. Outside vent man takes a saw and cuts through siding and sheathing of exterior just above masonry foundation. Building construction 101. There is a rim joist or box joist that goes around the framing of floor joists. Make up and down cuts into this rim joist. About 5 or 6 cuts spaced about a foot apart. Take an axe or halligan and remove pieces of rim joist. You are removing just the outside box. Not the floor joists. Now you have a 5′ by 1′ hole looking down into basement. Many advantages to this technique. Much easier to see and work, no collapse hazard, interior crews can drive the fire,smoke, and heat out these vent holes. Also, if things get bad and you have to go defensive you now have access to the fire from the outside. Have tried it and have pictures to show. Let me know your thoughts.
SD… Thanks for sharing the technique on venting a basement fire. Would be great to see your pics. Maybe post them up on this site?
This link was posted once before from Texas U. on PPV/PPA good study. http://www.me.utexas.edu/~ezekoye/rsch.dir/research/index.html
NEED TO FIND SOME FIREMEN
why are people using PPV so early in a fire???Those fans are for clearing highrise stairwells, and for salvage ops to lessen smoke damage. In a house that small there is no need for ppv. just vent properly(vertically) ASAP. Stop using god dang quints! use that manpower to vent enter search,and in this case open up the friggin walls. these folks are lucky. on a positive note that male reporter sounded like he knew what he was talking about.
Cellar fires are risky proposition even in the best scenarios. Limited access/unknown fuel load. We get complacent and firefighters get hurt. Protect the stairwell. Tough when it’s acting as a chimney. Find or make another entrance! 4 cuts and a ladder work wonders. The fire’s not out until you check for extension.
A topic was brought up since my last post, why would you go to the roof on a basement fire? I personally wouldnt, if its a balloon frame construcion you will draw that fire to the attic making the fire worse. I fought my fair share of basement fires and i learned several things. Basement fires taking out a window on the first floor and cutting a hole in the floor right below it works great, (make sure utilities are secured first) The other thing i learned is the stairwell leading to the basement is one hell of a chimney, there is a lot of heat beating you before you even make it to the fire. If i can find a door leading directly to the basement from the outside im taking that everytime. You take a huge risk going through the front door. Too many fire fighters are dieing because the floor collapses on them trying to get to the basement because these fires are hotter then ever before. I have yet to try it but i have heard good things about taking out some of the basement windows and let the fire react how it wants and depending on the volume of fire blitz attack it and then go in or go get it all yourself. My opinion you are controlling the fire if you do that because you will be passed roll over and flash over stages after you give it some oxygen and you wont have to worry about either of them.
ive read a few of these posts and there are some great comments on here but most of them are either bashing the fan or talking it up . personally i think that ppv/ppa are great tools … if used properly that is. but lets also look at a few other things . one the initial size up was good they arrived on scene confirmed a working basement fire and entered through the back of the structure and cut the fire off before it could gain access up the stair well. then they were able to get a good knockdown .now this is where things get a lil tricky and good tactics have to come into play . number one ppv in a basement fire sitution prolly should not be used the air will follow the path of least resistance (ie the stairwell of the basement) but once the air hits the basement whre does it go from there? unless the basement has an outside exit then the basement will become pressurized and an oxygen rich environment is created … what now?well this increases any fire conditions you thought that you may have had under control . watch the video the man that was posted at the fan froze when he seen the smoke conditions change … turn the damn fan off get it away from the door and get some water on the fire… now what could have been done was using the old negative pressure fan at the back door and pull the smoke out dont push it it this would be a great tactic in a basement fire situation. even if you would have cut a hole in the roof or poped a window you would have still got the same result . im glad everyone is ok and is able to let us learn from this . god bless and stay safe out there
WOW!!! I have never seen anyhing like that in my ten years on the job. My department usually begins PPV with the initial fire attack. We have no ladder trucks (not an excuse) and only send 10 firefighters to a residential house fire in my department and NEVER EVER use vertical ventilation even though we train on it. This video is very eye opening. Thank you!!!
Ummm, these guys had a hoseline. Knocked down the fire, called for vent. 2 probs I see here. One, the interior crew had a hose. They should have used it. Two, no backup line? PPV has been used for years. Yes i agree that the smoke needs to be monitered. If a second hoseline was backing up the first one, there wouldn’t be a story here. Basements fire are hot with minimal vent areas. Did anyone take out the basement windows? Again, a hose line is your safety line from the fire.Why didn’t the use it??????????
No need for a long explanation of what happened. They asked for a PPV to ventilate the smoke, yet failed to have an adequate exit for the airflow. Further, PPV is typcially contraindicated is most basement fires (due to lack of adequately sized openings) AND anytime fire is presumed to be hidden (like in walls and attics).
Both vertical and PPV ventilation can be dangerous–especially when you apply it improperly.
They are lucky to be alive.
This video is a yet another good example of the extreme dangers PPV presents. I think they should be removed from serivce. Vent early and vent often. Basic truck work is essential at every fire.
IF U KNOW WHEN TO USE THE PPV SH#T LIKE THAT WONT HAPPEN.THE GUY WHO FIRED IT UP IS JUST A DUMBASS
Where to start. It is so important to coordinate your ventilation with the inside team. Many of our brothers have been killed due to improper venting. Where I come from you take windows, take skylights, take scuttles, and cut roofs to vent and help advance the line. Keep in mind it is always coordinated. Then when the fire is knocked down we open up to check for extention. As far as im concerded you can leave that fan on the rig for a private dwelling fire. Either way im sure the officer operating inside did not give the order to operate that fan. If he did its time for retraining
Great video, when used properly PPV can be very helpful but sometimes reading by the book can put you in a bad situation. I agree with matt, pop some windows. Also making sure truck company checks well for extension helps alot for your engine crew so we all know what were truly dealing with. Eric also has a point with coordination, that is key. No fire has ever gone exactly by the book.
Read smoke and think outside the box.
Stay safe brothers
Always open up after a knock…fire may appear to be out but its always hiding everywhere…as soon as the knob guy hits it…leave yes yes i said leave the hose line and open everything up!!
A
Glad everything turned out ok. PPV or not…. Aggressive TRUCK WORK would have quickly revealed the hidden fire in the walls. Open up a few bays to check for upward extension. Horizontally ventilate on the first floor if nothing else. As contreversial as vertical ventilation might be on basement fires I can tell you that PPV will provide no relief to the crew in the basement. Where is it going to push the smoke if there is only one stairway to the basement and no open windows. HYDRAULIC ventilation is by far the absolute best means of ventilating a basement fire. There’s a lot of great teaching points to learn from on this. We all have different experience levels, different tactical strategies and SOP’s. We can all learn something from incidents like this. I’ve made my share of mistakes and still continue to…. lets hope that we all live to talk about them.
Stay Safe!!
I know its a little late on the post but, her goes. Didn’t get a chance to review all posts but, some talked about this structure not being a good candidate for Vert. Vent. Keeping in mind that vertical vent is venting a above the fire not necesarily the roof. Cut a hole in the floor near a window. Just like popping the top. Where I work “PPV” is pretty much used for smoke removal in the overhaul phase. Also I agree that the TIC would have been a valuable tool, but not essential. Brothers have been opening up walls and ceilings as the fire attack is made or just after knockdown. Always open up til you find clean wood before calling it extinguished or even knocked.
Always enjoy the comments and discussions. Take care out there brothers.
Very interesting and also informative video. I personally do not like using PPV and still go with taking out windows (removing them if they are the double-hung)or clearing out the window frames. Again different areas do different things for ventilation. I am in the Metro NY area and PPV still has not caught on here. We still go with fans in the windows to clear out the smoke. This is just a good example of what can happen if you use PPV and DON’T read the smoke. Just my .02
I read probably about half the comments and just skipped the rest and add my lil story. First of all I believe that many if not most of the smaller departments in the country don’t realize the value of vertical ventilation. My department doesn’t most of the time. Yes, we have a fan and yes we use it, when the fire is out. If we need to truly vent during an attack it’s at the roof, not with a fan.
Now with that being said, I was off duty and just lounging around the firehouse just goofing off. We have a boat in our department to pump our engines since we have a lot of lake houses. Normally if another district needs the boat vollies grab it and use it, not the guys on shift, so the neighboring county needed our boat for water. Hey, it’s not the Truck but who cares it’s a fire right? Loaded up my gear and drove the boat over there. From the get go, I knew it was going to be a pain in the arse. Smoke coming from the eves from a 3 story private dwelling. Hooked up all the supply lines (Truckie has to play with hose sometime too), and headed to the IC. He told me to mask up and take my buddy (brand spanking new buddy too, this would be his first fire), and relive the guys on the hose on the top floor. Ok. Fire was in a top floor bathroom with slight extension to the attic. Got up there and doused what the other team had already, and pushed into the attic to hit the extension. Smoke lot’s of smoke and it was hot. Not good. I called down for ventilation. 3 mins later, I hear this loud roar and look down the attic entrance to find a PPV fan at the bottom of the wooden ladder. What the hell? Sure enough smoke starts churning and it gets hotter and hotter, so I pull out with my little newbie. I call up the IC and said we need a vertical vent and he didn’t answer me, so I said to hell with this and went outside. I told him we needed a vertical vent, and he looked at me funny. Long story short no vent was done, the fan was left in place until the fire self vented through the attic. That’s what he told me his plan was while we were up there. Let the fan blow until it self-vents and then you guys can knock it down, while we sit in churning smoke and fire burning all around us. What? Since when is that a tactic? Just my lil story about this subject. Use what the fire calls for not what is the easiest or what you did for the last 50 fires.
So another point is that most departments over utilize some pieces of equipment and under utilize others.
I agree with a few of your points. But, I have to ask what the hell “small departments” has to do with it? A lot of firemen don’t understand ventilation, I don’t care where they’re from. As far as your story, it sounds like there was a miscommunication, not a misunderstanding. I ABSOLUTELY agree with your last 2 sentences, but I’ve seen a lot more instances where people saw a big ass hole in the roof on a room and contents fire when the fan would do fine. Don’t get me wrong, I think the fan doesn’t get used properly most of the time either, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the size of the department. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Yea maybe I could have worded it a lil better. I guess what I meant to say is that smaller departments don’t utilize it more often because they believe their manpower always restricts them to using the fan. Or because they don’t utilize vert vents more often because they are scared to do it. I don’t know what I meant by smaller departments, get on a rant and what you mean to say gets kinda askewed. Remember I’m just a dumb guy that rides a big red truck and pulls ceilings, and gets carried away when someone tries to roast his arse with a fan.
And as far as a miscommunication, I don’t truly think it was. When I got there, the fan was setup at the front door of the house (of course not doing any good on a 3rd floor fire with no exit point), when I called for ventilation they naturally assumed I wanted the fan. The IC didn’t tell anybody to put the fan there as far as I know, one of the guys downstairs decided to. My Asst. Chief who also was there called them up and had a few choice words about it all, and thats how I know they wanted the fire to self vent. All I can say is that it was a cluster with a lot of problems least of which was my fan incident.
But I did come away with a whole new respect and appreciation for the fan, when used correctly. Thanks for the reply, I stand corrected, meant no disrespect just worded badly.
No problem, brother. I agree completely agree with your statement on manpower. As I always say, grabbing a hose line and running in the front door isn’t always the right thing to do right away.
I also believe that sometimes you need to do more with less. At my vollie company, we had an attic fire (I think it was an attic fire, not sure I wasn’t able to go, I was working) and they had 4 guys who could fight fire. 4. They pulled a line and tried to put it out but couldn’t without venting so the other 2 guys had to vertically vent and then regroup and attack again. 2 in, 2 out rule was broken but saved a house and finished the job. I’m not a rogue agent but then again I feel better putting out a fire than letting a home burn down cause I couldn’t follow one NFPA rule.
Sometimes you have to do more with less. Don’t work with ya so I can’t say see you at the next one, so see you at the next post, bro.
2-in/2-out is not an NFPA. It’s OSHA. The consequences of violating OSHA are /significantly/ more severe than ignoring NFPA suggestions.
You’ve got to make the risk analysis and decision but be aware of what could possibly happen.
Actually 2 in/2 out is NFPA also.
…..and Im confused…How was it broken?
If you have only 4 firefighters on scene that can physically put on a pack and enter and you have 3 inside and one pulling line at the front door, your one guy short on the outside, if the guy pulling line doesn’t count. If you have two men inside on a line and 2 venting, you are short 4 guys, 2 for the inside team and 2 for the roof team.
We normally don’t have this problem, but being a Monday at 2 in the afternoon. Not many people could come.
I still don’t get it. You’re still at 2 in/ 2 out if you have a team venting. You don’t need two for the vent team.
Technically I don’t think you need 2 ppl for the vent team, but then again if you have 2 more for the vent team then OSHA/NFPA whoever can’t say a darn thing can they. Anyway it worked out and saved the house and that’s really all that matters in the long run. Thanks for the comments though.
Got ya. Im just easily confused.
Just go with my theory…..OSHA SCHMOSHA.
PPV should be just another tool in the toolbox.