Captain David Osgood from York Beach (ME) Fire found this door in a residence in his first due. The door only measures 16 inches across and may originally appear to be a broom or linen closet. Once the door is opens it reveals the hidden secret.
The door leads down to what appears to be a child’s bedroom in the basement. This set-up brings out an important discussion. Would you have found this during a search? Would this door have been passed during the primary search due to its small size and swing direction? There are pros & cons to either answer, but it certainly makes for a good discussion around the firehouse dinner table.
34 thoughts on “Broom Closet?”
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No this would not have been passed up in a search. Even if it was a closest it must be searched. When you open the door you may think it’s a closest until you feel around, and then you have a new scenario. However, I would like to see some more pictures of this basement room to see what types of egress there are. Any type of window? But I do not think this would be passed up since it is still a door that leads to somewhere, and possibly something.
I agree…It should not be passed up. If you are assigned to search you must ensure every inch of your area is covered. The disturbing part is citizens expect US to find them even when they do this stupid s&%t! This is the stuff that will kill us so take note.
It should not overlooked, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it is. We have to make sure things like this are not overlooked, even if they shouldn’t be there. Remember to always keep aware, and expect the unexpected. Stay Safe.
OK. Here’s my take….
Should the area be searched? Yes
Would it be by most initially? Probably not
When would you search it? ????
Where do you search for victims/where are they normally found? Obvious areas
What are most outward swinging doors in residences? Closets
If you found this during a first floor search, are you going to discontinue and move to the next floor. Probably not, especially a below grade floor. Why? Because there shouldnt be anyone down there. Search the floors where the people should be, but I think this would be the last priority in a search, unless you had other info. Right, wrong, or indifferent anyone that says theyd catch this and search it is probably full of shit. I guess the point of my mindless wandering here is there is no text book answer to this question.
A few years ago I would have missed it. I did. I was Truck Captain on what appeared to be a 1 story small residential home with flames on the Alpha side, all occupants were reported out. During the walk around I missed the A/C unit and the window on the B and D sides in what I assumed was the attic. During the search I went by a small door thinking it was a small coat closet. During the secondary my Firefighter opened the door and found narrow stairs to the converted attic with 3 beds and play area. Luckily it was all clear.
So, no I would not pass it. Today I would notify Command of the second floor, complete the 1st floor search and then notify and move to the second floor. Wish I had taken pics on that one.
*Warning ff humo(u)r ahead*
The give away would have been the brass plaque on the lawn that said “Historic Site: Karen Carpenter’s Last Residence.”
Hmm and a basement with only 9 steps down? That’s gotta be a pretty low ceiling. (Maybe she sublet to Herve’ Villachez?)
On a serious note: any windows in the basement?
If it was discovered during a primary search the dilemma is whether or not you commit to going into the basement for a search at that time. We teach that you should never remove your airpack in order to get DEEPER into a building. 16″ means that for most of us we would have to do a low profile maneuver to simply get through the doorway. . . certainly something to think on.
I agree with DMAN and rightbucketbrother, it’s not a question of “should it be searched” because the obvious answer is yes. The real question is as they stated, “when should it be searched.” Personally, I open all doors when searching during primary search…assuming that given visibility conditions I find the door to begin with. The first question I have for the original poster is how far inside this door were the stairs? If I open a perceived closet and when placing my hand/arm inside I don’t feel anything to indicate stairs, I’ll probably conclude (in this case wrongly) that it is a closet and move on. If I touch the stairs or open space and determine there is a sub level, then I have to go back to the original dilemma of do I search it now or come back later during secondary search?
Can I blame someone for missing this during a fire? Not really. Hindsight being 20/20 and clear visibility during a walk through makes it obvious that there is another level. During a fire, however, I must first search the most common areas and locations that past experience and statistics give. Then once I clear those areas I look into other less likely areas. Translation: you have to go with the odds. Therefore I couldn’t really blame a guy if he missed it in a fire.
Thanks for posting it though as it will be filed in my memory bank in case I ever run across something out of the ordinary. I hope that the personnel involved took the next step and informed the other crews or posted the information where it will be readily accessible should a fire/emergency ever occur in this residence.
Take care all and btw sorry for the longwinded response. 🙂
It is our policy in our Dept that all doors be searched regardless of it being a room or closet.
People especially children will hide in closets.
But depending on the severity of the fire and smoke one thing comes to mind, When this door is open and with darkness of the day or thickness of smoke, when you do sweep what you think is a closet I guess you would find out of the stairs leading down and most likely by falling down them? But what or if any other egress is there for this room?
Thats one thing we in my department are not prevlidged to is a tour and pre plan of private residents only commercial and office space.
Search is absolute, but what would suck is a firefighter(s) that becomes trapped or goes down. A RIT (FAST) team would have a bitch of a time getting someone out of that area. This situation would give the Denver Drill a run for the money.
I agree with everyone who has posted so far, but a few more then the rest. It should definitely be searched, but I would not search on primary. Open the door, yell down the steps and wait 5 seconds to listen for anything, radio to IC stating what you found and check it fully on secondary search. The 16″ doorway poses too much of a threat for entrapment and difficulties rescuing to abandon the rest of the structure.
I agree with everything everyone is saying. I have only been in my department just shy of 3 yrs now and know i would have thought it was a closet. i mean thats is what i was taught if the door swings towards you it is generally a closet. wow a basement bedroom. i would like to see the escape plane for that house. how old was this house?? Did it meet the states building codes?? thats is a scary thing that one door could make make a search change in the dlink of an eye. Well room or no room anything behind a door should be searched nevertheless.
Does that appear to be a lock on the door? Above the door knob. This also could be a problem. I do agree with not leaving any stones unturned but initially would not commit to searching it until after the rest of the primary search was performed. Is is still a primary or secondary search if you did not search it to begin with?
Ok Question for Capt. Dave, is there another basement entrance or other outright signs of a sub-level?
Question for my brothers, is finding this door any different than finding the basement steps or steps to an upper level when searching a structure known to have multiple floors? If you are searching a three level home do you automaticly advance up the stairs with out completing the search of the initial floor? Why would this be any different.
If I am searching a structure and find a previously unknown level I would advise command of its presence and access point and continue with the search of the division I started on (unless I had outward signs of a citizen in distress). If additional resources were not able search the newly found area I would return to it once I had completed the primary on the floor in which I started.
Just my $0.02, Stay safe FTM-PTB
thats why guys like me join the fire service. 5’7″ 120 lbs. tunnel/attic rats.
Every door on a primary should be searched. Children get scared and panic and hide in these closets As far as a steps leading to the basement The officer that’s with you should find out if there are reports of people in the basement.Why commit you and your team to a very dangerous area if you don’t have to.
Never pass any door without checking for heat or fire,never get caught with fire behind you.
Im still calling bulls@#t. Almost everyone would miss this. Not only that but assuming the fire did not start in the that room, the conditions there may not be that bad, therefore making that a low priority area. I know there’s a lot of assuming but Ive seen a bunch of fires where the basement is clear as a bell.
what would you do if you rolled up on this house, smoke showing, and ur nozzle team enters the stucture and its a basement fire. what would you do? you cant get the line down the steps to even knock it down, let alone put it out, or get down to search. if its a typical basement its got, water heater, furnace. its got hazards that would be hard to get to even on a furnace malfunction call
Dman72 has the right answer. Add any sort of stress and it would most likely be missed. Maybe catch it after the primary search, low chance you’d hit it on the first pass. under fire conditions finding it would be an accident.
Where’s all the good citizen’s crap? Shouldn’t there be like 3 months worth of garbage and broken furniture, big screen TV’s in front of the door just to make it a little more challenging? Golf clubs, ironing board, beer can collection in the closet next to this one? Maybe put someone’s big chemistry set or their reloading equipment down in the basement just for jollies?
Face it, most of us are human. We do the best we can. If you think you’re going to be perfect and not miss things like closets that turn into rooms, this is the wrong job for you. Shit happens.
Now if your job is to shut off the utilities, you’d better be more creative and find them, up here the breaker box and gas shutoff would be in that room- behind a hidden panel that only Houdini could open.
shorty,
Ax, cellar nozzle, piercing nozzle. What do we do if we cant fit in the hole? Make the hole bigger.
DMAN and Dave have the right thought process here. We do what we can. And another thought…looks like a good place for a Meth lab.
I do not believe this would have been missed by a search team. This style room entrance is not uncommon in certain areas of New England. They were primarily used to access the servant quarters in the home. The house I grew up in had a similar door that went to a finished room in the attic. My uncle’s home actually had one off the kitchen that accessed a two floor stairway to a bedroom. Watch fire conditions closely because I have not found any of these rooms to have secondary means of egress.
I too would think this would be found, entered and searched immediately would be a different story. We teach and require all doors get opened. Any quick sweep of the hand or tool would have revealed the lack of a floor, leading to at least a closer look. Unless the smoke conditions were so light that you could see un-aided I’d think a physical sweep would be all telling. Now, an on your feet quick check with little to no smoke? Sure maybe we miss the missing floor and only see an empty closet.
Shorty like have been said, a clear basement fire is a red flag and an easy fix. Cut a hole in the floor have the bucket heads stuff there 1 3/4 inches of love in the hole and find the door it would be the one with soke are steam pushing out of it.. I cannot tell you how much I HATE basement jobs, they just flat out suck!!! This is a shitty design and thank you for posting it, I could not fit in that space in a “T-shirt and shorts†let alone full gear..
I too do not believe any firefighter with proper training would miss this potential “deathtrap”. With over 20 years of firefighting in southern NH and now in code enforcement and inspections it still amazes me when I find situations such as this, and I do… constantly. However, a warning to all…with the economic times as they are, be very aware that this is happening EVERYWHERE in the U.S.! Owner’s who need to pay bills will rent anything and renter’s who can not afford legitimate housing will occupy anything.
Do not fall prey to IWHH (It Won’t Happen Here)
Since Im on the site anyways…..There’s always what-ifs in any situation, but proper training only takes a person so far. So saying “any firefighter” is a ridiculous broad generalization. This door is 16 freaking inches. In blinding, black smoke this WILL be missed by most on a standard primary search. You’re not going to feel every inch of a builidng in a primary search. I agree that it would probably be found eventually, but during a primary under fire conditions?? C’mon.
Its easy to say you would search this, and for those who have missed something in a search before, you might find this.
Thats why this site is so great. Seeing things like this will hopefully help others NOT miss something like this in their future.
I know I have missed similiar items on searches and once your shown something you missed, you TRY to not miss it or similar things in the future.
Stay safe.
~Egan
In my dept, upon finding potentially dangerous conditions, whether it be a cluttered room with the possiblity of entanglement or a discovery such as this, we would announce ‘Urgent Urgent’ over the radio. This can be either be to give the area in question more attention or simply to warn ffs of the potential for trouble, due to fire, structure or design.
FitSsik,, what do you announce an emergency with?? I am not busting your balls, but anything with “priority traffic, emergency, urgent, or screaming firefighters are “urgent traffic†in my little slice of haven.. This is just an update to command noting more nothing less.
Brickcity, I’m not entirely clear on your question.
“what do you announce an emergency with??” I didn’t want to answer, “A radio.” cuz it sounds like I’m being a wise guy! 😉
Really, it’s just a way of attempting to get your message more priority or attention.
With radio messages like,
“Command R2 proceeding to the 3rd floor.”
“Command E3 crew taking a line in on the 1st.”
Etc etc
The “Urgent urgent urgent!” should stand out and get other crews to listen…..more. 😉
When encountering a situation that Command and/or other crews should know about, we should announce over the air, “Urgent! Urgent! Urgent!”. This should cease all other radio traffic so that we can explain the ‘findings’. The next on air announcement that you don’t want to hear is, “Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!”
So in this case the crew that found the skinny door (if they realized it wasn’t a closet) would announce an
“Urgent” x 3 over the air, with an approximate location along with details of the situation.
Now if they told command they were proceeding with a search of this lower level Command may have guys moving to vent the basement in the support of their actions. It would also be possible that Command would tell them to “Hold off.” until other actions were taken.
If said ffs got into trouble and the dreaded “Mayday!” x 3 was heard, Command would already have a heads up regarding the location (and it’s limitations) and whether secondary egress was available.
I posted this about the article “Playroom” from back in January 08. A very similar situation so I feel my post still applies. I have to agree with DMAN72. I think most primary’s might miss this. I would probably miss it and I have seen things like it before. I don’t care how good you are, even good, very experienced , fireman have bad days and miss stuff. We just need to try and limit that as much as possible through good training, and sharing situations like these with other fireman.
My Previous Post:
A primary search should be rapid and effective. Spent the most time on the most probable location of a victim, but all areas should be searched. Each building will present its own unique set of problems, as will the location of the fire within that building. You have to take in account all different kinds of factors when preparing yourself mentally for a search. I am not trying to sound like I am writing an article for Firehouse magazine, but think about it. A six story office building at 3 a.m. doesn’t have a high probability of finding more than a cleaning crew standing in the lobby when you get there. A two story middle of-the-row rowhouse at 3 a.m., you will probably find all you victims in the second floor bedroom. On a smoky three story Garden apartment fire with kids trapped, you might find the 2 boys in there favorite hiding spot, the closet.
We have to be smarter than to dismiss doorknobs as unimportant. If it opens, OPEN IT! Kids like to hide in small places, which include closets. On a run into a recently renovated rowhouse there was a small hallway closet door slightly ajar. This is everyone’s typical hallway linen closet right? Upon further inspection it revealed a set of small, almost ladder-like, stairs that led to finished and occupied cockloft. Feeling inside during a primary you would have felt the steps and possible found the family that called that 4 foot high room home. If you made the mental mistake of dismissing it as a closet they might have been found by the roof team trying to vent.
One more example and I will get off my soapbox. I have been in quite a few poorly laid out apartments in the city. On more than one occasion I found myself in a walk-in closet off of the living room. It seams like a weird spot for a closet, doesn’t it. If you crawl to the far end of that closet you would find another closet type (opening out) door. Behind that door was the only bathroom for the apartment. You never know where someone will end up trying to hide from a fire.
If you are assigned to do a search on a fire, SEARCH! We need to stay focused on the task at hand, which in this case is looking for victims. Victims don’t always make it easy by lying down just inside the front door. Sometimes you don’t always find someone on the primary, even when they are lying just inside the front door, but you had better damn well find them on the secondary. That’s why we do two searches, and sometimes three and four. Check everywhere!
Not sure about your area but around here in residential outward swinging doors can be basement entrances, attached garage entrances etc..
No “rule of thumb” is perfect, so it still needs to be checked. In a 1 1/2 story cape you could have this for stairs going to the finished attic. Have not seen one this narrow but anything is possible in today’s age of home depot handyman homeowners… Good find..
I am going to add my two cents here! Yes it should be searched, however, due to the swing and the size of the door would I personally pass by it, maybe initially, however, say this was found between a kitchen without exterior access, and a dining room with exterior access, I may first pass it to search the kitchen, however, on my way back to the dining area I would definitely open the door and search it at that point! If upon opening the door, I noticed the stairs (or in this case almost ladder type structure), I would ensure that myself and my crew then searched that area on the basis that it was safe to enter, if the conditions became too deplorable, I may request that we do not search that part of the structure. All the while, I would maintain radio contact with the exterior. If I had a crew of four, I may then split my crew, assign a senior firefighter a radio to ensure constant communications and another firefighter to search the area. My reasoning for splitting my crew is to provide for protection of any fire which may then impede the search, also because you do not know if the space underneath is as big as a bed room, or if it were extremely small and only used for storage, it would not over crowd that area. Situating myself and another crew member at the top of the steps, provide for constant voice to voice communications if possible with the crew in the basement area, thus if they become disorientated, they may be able to find an exit by following my vocal commands. If the crew became disorientated and became unable to find the way to the stair case, I would then radio the Mayday, myself and the crew member with me, would then become an initial rapid intervention or FAST team to make every attempt on saving a fellow firefighter or two! I would leave something at the top of the steps, that could easily be seen and identified as to show the incoming crews or rapid intervention teams as to which stair case I called out in regards to. By no means would I allow myself or a single firefighter to enter the area without a partner, thus following the two-in two-out rule. Again, if they became disabled, I would re-state my Mayday from firefighters which are disorientated to clearly state I have two firefighters missing. By leaving something at the top of the steps, I can then radio to the crew coming in to assist in rescue operations and also use what it was I left behind at the stair top as a visual cue. As I carry thirty feet of utility rope, as many members do as well, I would then tie off to the bottom of the stair case and commence a search while still maintaining some sort of contact with the stairs, this way if myself and my partner located the two firefighters or any other persons entrapped in that area, I would simply follow the rope back to the staircase and proceed to exit.
As for other crews, I could definitely see some crews initially not checking that area due to the door swing and size thinking it is a utility closet, however, on the more thorough secondary search, yes it would then clearly be searched!