Well you know what they say… “The one thing that all cops and firemen have in common is the fact that they all wanted to become firemen.†Jason Meyer from Sacramento City (CA) Truck 7 sent in a photo that proves that statement is true.
Truck 7 was recently “special called” to assist the Sacramento County Sheriffs SWAT Team. The team needed to gain roof access to pursue an armed gunman who had just tried robbing a shoe store. A majority of the SWAT team apparently felt the need to climb the aerial ladder at the same time… They must not understand proper aerial loading, or load limits.
I wanted to be a cop, but my mom made me graduate high school.
Remember God created firemen so cops could have a Hero too 🙂
They should have scored five more points, then they could have been firemen
mmmmm… doughnuts….
OK. I’LL BE THE A@#HOLE. JUST LIKE FIREMAN DON’T UNDERSTAND SWAT ENTRY TACTICS. P.S. WHY DIDN’T THE OPERATOR OF THAT UNIT EXPLAIN THE LADDER LIMITATIONS. AFTER ALL THE OPERATOR IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE.
“They must not understand proper aerial loading, or load limits.”
I wouldn’t think that any “load limits” would cross their mind.
It would be up to the officer in charge of the ladder to advise them of the proper and safe use of the ladder.
Now if they went against his advice because of the urgent nature of the emergency in question……..
I would of personally let them all get on the roof and just returned to quarters..
JAY,
THAT’S AWESOME! THAT’S THE BEST IDEA EVER!
To any cops who may be reading:
We tease you guys a lot, but it’s all in good fun. You’re welcome to come by the firehouse to grab a cup of coffee or use the can anytime. Be safe out there!
Your smarter and better looking big brother,
The Fire Service
Outstanding, I can only hope the area was secure I see no way to defend yourself half way up the ladder in a stack like that. semper fi brothers from the big sand box do ya hear me???? We have had several instances like this; the best was on another tour, they arrived to find an active gun battle.
Hut Hut Hut Hut!
“Holy Cow it’s a Fire truck!!!”
Even if the OIC did tell them…they gots guns! Go to youtube and search fireman vs policeman (Jake & Perry), nuff said!
As much animosity (mostly in good fun) there is between cops and firemen, it is always good to see an example of us helping each other out. Props to the SWAT team in utilizing resources and also to the truck crew who helped out.
Eventhough the load limits of the ladder from our standpoint seem to be exceeded, bottom line is that the job needed to be done and it did get done. Maybe some joint training with the PD and FD would have helped in this situation so we could each understand the others job a little better.
It’s a Pierce, it can handle it.
I agree with DMAN72, they should have been told exactly what to do and how to do it in regards to the fire truck. I blame the operator for that.
it looks like it isnt fully extended, so the load limits are prob alot higher. you can tell cause as BingBing pointed out, its a Pierce, and Pierce’s have overload strobes on the ladder. so either, the ladder isnt overloaded, or the shutter snapped as the strobe was inbetween flashes. but i think if they overloaded it, and the damn horn was going off, someone would have been asking questions and things would be corrected. youd think.
That ladder’s load limits were not even near being tested. The fly’s are hardly out of their beds. I would have probably rested the tip on that wall a little more just to absorb some of the bouncing. But when it comes to rescue’s many times have things been done that are either not endorsed or acceptable from a ‘book’ or the manufacturer.
I just want to say thanks for the laughs I got with some of the comments. It made my evening. Stay safe everyone.
“wanted to be a cop, but my mom made me graduate high school”
“Remember God created firemen so cops could have a Hero too”
“They should have scored five more points, then they could have been firemen”
“mmmmm… doughnuts”
I have tried in the past to work these kind of things out ahead of time but they fall on deaf ears. One time we had a barricaded subject and after 50+ rounds of tear gas (no joke-the shells in the street made it look like beer cans after a party) and a brief gun fight, our guys were left to “go in” and get the body. When I arrived (after not knowing the company had been on site for 12 hours -original call was an “assist to PD” and it was after 1800)the crew in PPE and SCBA were dragging the victim out. When I asked who checked him for weapons or booby traps and what decon was being don no one both us and the cops had an answer. The victim had to be removed from the amb and hosed off becasue the vapors were so strong.
It just seems to be a one-sided conversation.
Jon-
You mention the ladder load limits were not even being tested but I would somewhat disagree. Yes, the ladder is barely out of the bed. However, no manufacture builds an aerial to take seven men in gear-five on the bed section alone. And yes, while in rescues these things happen the fact that disaster does not stike is luck not planning. We all will look like stooges if the ladder fails, and I’m sure we’ll get the blame.
Also, resting the ladder against the building should be avoided. All aerial ladders are trusses designed to cantilever off the turntable. Resting them against the building changes the loading of the truss with relationship to compression and tension, and with seven men each around 200 or more pounds that’s a good 1500 or more pounds-some of which in the phot is highly concentrated.
We’re supposed to be part of the solution and not the problem.
The aerial is not going to fail from being placed on the parapet. It fails from torsional twisting, and thats not gonna happen with 7 scared cops low crawling up the stick.
Pierce doesnt recommend positive loads. theyre afraid youll put too much pressure down and raise the front wheels off the ground. and since pierce also wants the rear dualies 2 inches off the ground, that would put all stability on the jacks.
Why didnt the truck officer stop them from doing this? Even if it were exigent circumstances, THE COPS ARE USING YOUR FIRE TRUCK, you can say no and stop them. Hell throw a 35′ ground ladder and let them overload and collapse that and your out what maybe $500?
load limits? most limits are rated at full extension. pierce is rated (low end) for 750 pounds. The less extension, the more capacity. 7 guys 250 # each, no problem with capacity. I would see more of a trip hazard going up with loaded weapons. And who set up the truck in a hostile enviroment? cops, hope not.
All men are created equal, then a few become firemen. The Officer should have informed them of the load limits, maybe with Crayons and Dougnuts so you can draw a big picture and keep their attention…….. The Officer is sole responsible for the truck and its actions.
“I would have probably rested the tip on that wall a little more just to absorb some of the bouncing.”
Jon, a truss ladder must not rest on the roof. Remember, the strength of the ladder requires tension in the top chord. When the ladders rests on the roof, the top chord is no longer in tension and the strength is lost, perhaps catastrophically.
In addition, remember, when the ladder is at anything but a 90 degree angle with the roof, resting the tip on the roof will put a twist in the ladder. That’s also not good.
Now here’s a good driver drill. Extend the stick adjacent to a roof or some good frame of reference. Apply various loads to the ladder and observe how much bounce occurs. I think I’ll do that next shift!
In theory it would lose the tension, but when have you ever seen steel compress? The proof is in the fact that the ladder did not fail. The bounce of the ladder will depend on the load and the force it provides, and its resonance with the wave it produces. maybe with 7 guys on the stick they all canceled out the bounce.
While I agree with MOST of the comments… but I would be willinng to bet that the PD didnt just call the station up and ask the truck company officer if he would bring the truck over. Chances are… the order came down from the upper brass or the BC. I was on our truck company once and was made to ride a small little league team a few blocks down the street after winning a big game. I protested because of saftey and was told by the brass that it WOULD be done, no questions. I’d be willing to bet that the same thing happened here. How many times have we been made to do something similar that wasnt the safest… but had to anyway. I’d be willing to bet its quite a few.
I am sure that all ladders have a high safety factor, but at any rate the tip should never be rested on anything! Trusses can be very sensitive structures and when changing the loading it was designed for it can make a truss fail very quickly. Also it will change the loading on the tracks that hold the sections of the ladder together which also can be a failure point.
Also as Drew said the ladder was designed as a cantilever, which in truss analysis is completely different then a truss supported at both ends. With a cantilever it will put the maximum deflection of the ladder at the tip. With a truss supported at both ends the maximum deflection will be in the middle somewhere and that stress is what leads to the ladder failing.
Here’s a picture taken before those 2 guys jumped on the roof.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/swatload.jpg
😉
Holy SH*T !!!!
We have a 105′ Pierce….that appears to be similar to this one. Our rule of thumb is two men per section at any one time. So with four sections….8 total. With only 7 on this we would consider it acceptable. And it’s against our policy to EVER touch the aerial to anything other than the cradle.
All in all it’s a cool picture. Shows good cooperation and some higher level thinking by the cops (a firefighter must have been on scene to tell them about those “big ladder things the fire department has.”
I attempted to go to cop school but was deemed “too qualified” when I didn’t use an “x” to sign my name.
Be safe Brothers.
Im pretty sure everyone can stop arguing after seeing the link http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/swatload.jpg
Thanks too fitssiks for the link. It clearly shows that this was a unsafe act.
Now with seeing that kinda of contorsion done to our nice shiny ladder truck what happens now when a brother climbs this next shift. Does it fail? Maybe Maybe not. We all take what I would like to say Educated Risk. However I agree that throwing a 35 ft ladder would have been more pratical…
Think outside the box guys. Just dont put yourself in one.
Be Safe
GUYS,
A 35FT LADDER WOULD NOT ALLOW FOR TACTICAL MANUEVERS WHILE CLIMBING. WHAT IF THE FIRST GUY MADE THE ROOF AND WAS SHOT, HOW WOULD THE REST OF THE TEAM REMOVE HIM? ALSO WOULD YOU WANT TO CLIMB STRAIGHT UP A LADDER WITH AN ARMED PERSON ON TOP, WHAT IF YOU WERE ENGAGED? I COULD GO ON, BUT I WOULD RATHER NOT TAKE THE COP’S SIDE, NEXT THING YOU KNOW I’LL END UP WITH AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX AND A BAD ATTTITUDE LIKE THEM.(SORRY HAD TO!)
It is pretty clear that the second picture of the “overloaded” Ladder is photoshopped. Steel Ladders don’t bend like that and then just “bounce back,” it would stay that way once bent. Come on guys, who hasn’t done something in their career that may have been questionable at the time. Point is, no one got hurt, the FD saved the PD’s day, and everyone went home.
“The proof is in the fact that the ladder did not fail.”
Not sure if this is good logic. How many times have we heard somebody say, “well hell, we been doin’ it that way fer years.” This statement typically follows a catastrophic, sometimes fatal incident.
The second picture shows the ladder resting on the parapet and look at the bow. The top chord is surely in compression.
The second photo is a PHOTOSHOP creation.
Phew! Thanks Eastwood10! It appears as though my ” 😉 ” went mostly unnoticed.
Wow fitssiks………..my leg feels a few inches longer now.
ROFLMAO. I thought that at first but then noticed the different arm position of the guy by the turntable even though the uniform in the foreground doesn’t change and neither did the guy by the right outrigger or for that matter the buy at the end of the line going up. Nice work. ;>)
This photo was placed on here for.
1. A little humor (cops vs firemen)
2. Because it was kinda cool
I was on this call. I know and am very good friends with both the officer and the opperator. Neither did anything wrong…zero!!!! I back 100% what occurred here. This was a outside the box call, that required outside the box thinking. My officer is a highly respected Captain, and I would follow him anywhere. He has spent more time waiting for water at the end of a nozzle then most of us have time on the job. He would never put anyone..cop or fireman…in purposeful danger!!! It’s disappointing to see how some people are so quick to nit pick and judge because of one picture. It is also funny, yet disappointing to see some also get suckered into a obvilously doctored picture.
Now before someone comments back..”Well if you put something up on here, you need to be prepared for neg or pos comments”….yeah I get it…but for Christs sake relax a bit.
Now let the bashing begin 🙂
“1. A little humor”
Hey, that’s the reason I posted MY picture! 🙂
And it was funny…caught a few!!! Fish on
2dawgs,
“CHRISTS” SAKE SHOULD HAVE AN APOSTROPHE DUE TO IT SHOWING POSITION. JUST THOUGHT I’D NITPICK THAT SO I COULD HAVE THE FIRST GRAMMAR CORRECTION IN THE HISTORY OF VES! NO ONE SAW THAT COMING DID THEY!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Nice one…I no have spell check. haha
Yeah I find most of the guys that give the ridiculous comments on here probably are all monday morning quarterbacks. They obviously don’t work for a busy department that runs calls and has to do stuff like this on a daily basis. 2dawgs I feel ya. Nice job on backing up your Capt. FTM-PTB
Thanks Brother,
KTF
Like I tell all of my cop “buddies”…the public always waves with five fingers to us, but only one to you!
Well my opinion on this how thing is 1. who would have thought a photo like this would be so highly talked about and 2. I look at it as it seems like cops cant do their jobs without the ol’ trusty truck guy backing them up. But it seemed like people were getting hostile about some of the comments that were made. Lets all just let things go and learn from this OUTSTANDING site and move on. Be safe god bless.
If you’re going to correct grammar on this site, one should at least realize that the apostrophe in Christ’s is to denote possession, not position. Additionally, the use of capital letters is reserved for the beginning of sentences as well as for proper names and titles, etc.
If I were to really nit-pick, I would also advise that you place 2 spaces after the period at the end of a sentence. BUT….whoose wachin innyway???
oh…..and you could put like 12 more guys on that ladder…..
Damn it!! Nice catch, Dave. I’m an idiot!!!!
someone should have told the swat team of the ladders weight limite and if there was a back entrense to the building the swat team should have lead a team there as well as the roof and the front door. or they should have just shot the guy. yea but i dont think they were gonna suprize the guy by praking a ladder truck in front of the building.but thats just my thought
My issue is how did the truck arrive at the position it’s at and who set it up? Personally if there was an armed gunman on the roof I am not pulling up in my turnout gear and jumping out and spending time in the open setting up and aerial ladder. Thanks but no thanks. Safety is the issue with the overloading but the safety of those driving/setting up is just as, if not more, great then the ladder load.
News reports said that the guy had run to the roof several hours before the SWAT guys went up there. There was no sign of the gunman anywhere, and it was fairly obvious he had left. But since he was seen on the roof at one point, they had to go up there.
This wasn’t a crazed-gunman-in-the-clocktower scenario. Just a 3rd striker who got busted stealing a pair of Jordans and panicked. I believe he’s now in the Sac County jail.
Who cares what cops do? Let ’em. they are never wrong. look at the gear they have. I wish i had half of that when i was in baghdad. Listen to all of you guys talk about what pierce reccomends and blah blah blah. If it was that big of a deal that the cops had to put on their SS outfits the truck wouldn’t have been there in the first place. It’s all a dog and pony show for overtime pay.
Cops…. You know they were all saying HUT, HUT, HUT, HUT, HUT, HUT, all the way to the top.
As a FF that also spent 17 years on a SWAT team, I’ll add my two cents on the cops on ladder. The potential safety issue of the load on the ladder has been addressed. Whether the team should have been allowed to climb it in that fashion is debatable. However, the tacticals that SWAT uses for THEIR safety requires all potential fields of fire (from a possible threat on the roof) be covered as soon as possible. This requires getting a lot of shooters on the roof ASAP to pick up all the potential areas a suspect might be hiding (behind HVAC systems, etc.). I don’t know if the department involved had air support that could have scoped out the roof prior to them climbing the ladder, but you have to approach the roof clearing op as if the suspect is still there hiding and just waiting to shoot someone.
This looks like a steel ladder to me it rally bounced back!! I know I know it Its pre 1988 no k bracing.
http://www.engr.sjsu.edu/WofMatE/images/ladder.failure.gif
And here is your Pierce ladder.
http://forums.firehouse.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11317&stc=1&d=1172160964
*Really sorry forgot my e
holy crap I can’t write today!!
heyy there only cops because they scored 10 points lower on the fire exam
wow I new we had firehoouse lawyers didnt know we had engineers too… E-0ne could use some help from you guys, cause Pierce continues to hand it to them. Oh yeah nice job backing up the boss too. Hey some of you cats need to mix in some decaff don’t be so afraid of the big bad world, oh yeah its also hard to listen to the instruction from the cat with the medic handle too. Knowing the officer on this truck has spent more time on the job than you have reading about ladder construction. Good luck on the next test though. Hey way to respect the chiefs too I like the cat who has all the answers just blame the chief, that will fly in court, grow some whiskers and walk the walk… 🙂 ok have fun, hey you fatty put down the powdered dog-nut they dont go with navy blue…
I don’t think it is engineering, but knowing your equipment and physics of aerials as any Apparatus Operator should.
Betcha at least half those guys wear fireman pajamas to bed at night!
Its nice to help the cops. But tommorow night this ladder may run a ems call to the perps brothers house. “hey your the guys that helped the cops get my brother”. Its a fact, citizens like us and trust us, they dont like cops or trust em. Lets keep it that way. No disrespect to PD I know there great people with a tought job, one that I didnt sign up for.
FTM-PTB