Daniel Crump from Catlettsburg (KY) sent in this interesting photo of another hidden child’s play area. As you can see from the photo, there is a large area underneath the bed that could easily conceal a child during a search. We have shown various “hidden” areas that could be difficult to find on a primary. While firefighters frequently have differing opinions on whether these areas should or should not be searched, it always leads to a good discussion. Regardless of opinions, it’s something to discuss during training, and at least keep in mind during an actual search. Another interesting thing about this bed, it that in a low visibility situation, it may not feel like a bed at all. The ladder in the middle should always serve as a good indication that there is something else worth searching.
….and if there was any heat whatsoever those beds would be puddles.
Question…in a search, we manage, somehow, to find the kid under there. How do we get to him if they are buried in a corner?
Use a 6′ hook of course
Anytime I search a bed I flip the mattress until I can touch floor. Then there’s no question if it was searched and helps the secondary search make sure they don’t forget to check it either.
On this bed when you flipped the mattress you’d find there is a possible compartment underneath since you can’t touch floor. Keep flippin!
That’s definitely gonna be hard to recognize as a bed in smoke. I guess the key is knowing you’re in a bedroom and realizing something’s missing. i.e. If you’re searching a bedroom and haven’t found a bed, keep looking.
so out of all the hundreds of sugestions and cool tricks of the trade ideas that get submited to this VES.com, why are there posts of “hidden” spaces all the time? these posting really serve no one but the dept/area the “hiden” space is in. Post some stuff we can all use, like cool tools or techniques. I feel we all have a good understanding of the need to “search all these crazy places.”
wondering, it’s designed to keep us aware of unique things like this. Tips and techniques only go so far as local operating policy, we can find any of these issues in any of our first due areas..imagine how good you would feel making a grab because you decided to check something that may have seemed “off”
Keep an open mind brother, some day, someone else’s family may benefit from it.
“Wondering”
We need to be reminded becasue complacency breeds dead firemen. and not knowing you or your resume’ I will remind you that a fireman dies on average one every 80 hours. That’s the reminder to “us.”
Then of course there is the other side of the “fun,” “jokes,” “great meals,” etc…. DEAD kids at fires. Have zipped up many body bags at 3am and 3pm over the last 24 years. Sometimes the bag had an old guy in it and I justified his passing in my heart in one way or another saying, “He lived a long life.” THen there are those fires that make me sick to my stomach the second I think about them. Zipping up a large bag with a very little body in it and carrying it outside to the bus. LIFE CHANGING. Makes you go home and watch your kids sleep for hours on end and sometimes makes you find the bottom of a bottle of scotch.
My hope for you is that what I am writing about is foreign to you and that you NEVER walk outside and throw up amidst your tears. We are a tough breed until we carry one of our own or a young soul out in a black bag.
THIS IS WHY you should continue to “wonder” until your final day on the job.
Godspeed.
I just had to say, swear on my mother’s life that we had an actual meter pulling argument on a fire call yesterday. That being said, RS, heart attacks and car wrecks kill firemen. I know what you’re saying, but Im on a new kick this year. Im sick of reading these “LODD” reports. We kill like 4 firemen a year because of complacency, we kill the rest because of idiocy. Either way it’s still too many.
RSFDNY….WELL PUT
RSFDNY. Well said. You hopefully openned the eyes of wondering and he/she never has to carry out a youngster in a black bag. I personally never have but I pray that I never have to.
good find guys way to keep your eyes open… you never know what may be there. keep up the good work and stay safe
Dman;
“Idiocy” / “Complacency”
Same in my eyes as well brother. Stay vigilant. It WILL keep them alive. Every response can bring with it a 5 minute mini-drill.
“How did you get to the roof?”
“How will you get there if that wasnt an option?”
“Building Construction.”
“13 Point Size-Up.”
“Forcible Entry.”
“Hydrant to Fre? or Fire to Hydrant?”
“Apparatus Placement.”
and so on and so on.
If you can’t drill ofr an hour each set then break it up and do it acorss the board as you respond. Even on EMS runs. Take a look around the place and see what it presents to you.
This is a GREAT find. No matter where in the country or world you are. We all keep these little things in the back of our minds and hope we can remember them when it counts the most.
I have thought hard about it, but I can not seem to work this in to the topic, so I am just going to come out and say it…. LEAF BLOWER
We had a small kitchen fire today at a single family single story house. Upon fire being extinguished myself and a FF off the engine tried finding the secondary means of egress, ie a back door. We searched for 3 minutes to find it and had to resort to going back outside the structure and finding the backdoor in a carport. We tried the door and found it blocked. We went back inside the house and found it was not only blocked by an entertainment center but had a blanket nailed over the frame. That is one of the reasons we should emphasis the exterior walkaround on fireground ops. In this situation it was a “small non exciting” fire. But let’s look at the “what if”. Alot of bad things could happen.That is why I am grateful for this site and the tips for helping us keep our eyes sharp and not get tunnel vision.
LAD288,
In regards to the leaf blower comment…Sometime you just gotta go for it on 4th and long. Good call.
I am just curious what firefighters say this should not be searched?
As per RSFDNY,
You sound like the person who used to head up my depts probie training. I’ve always preached that ever since Probation, that Complacency is when things go bad. I haven’t been in as long as you but I’ve been to a fire where we buried someone a bit older than me. Truly eye opening experience. The fact that little kids hide everywhere makes it more important then ever to keep discovering compartments like this. As per my probationary coordinator’s instructions I try to learn something new every day. He also held the practice of using each alarm as drill. Glad to see he isn’t the only one training the new guys like that.
And as per chad, I agree any firefighter that say this should not be searched I question.
…well I’d like to think that Chad’s question was in fact retorical.
Here’s a blow-up of the product:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/LifeStyle.jpg
It’s quite possible that a burly ff doing a search would destroy this contraption during the process!
On the company website ( http://www.step2.com/product.cfm?product_id=1340 ) one of the reviewers says: “her 2 year old son loves to play under it and hide from his sisters”
As I said before, any heat and you’ll be checking the puddles.
Chad and Fits are right on the money…
We had a relatively small “Step 2” kids art easel that showed up at the drillyard one day. It accidentally fell into one of the burn pans (before the existance of NFPA 1403, of course).
I have never in my life seen such black sooty smoke come from a burn building, even worse than when we used to burn mixed #6 oil & diesel down in the basement back in the 70’s and early 80’s. It was literally pushing with pressure from every crack in the cinder blocks and coated everyone and everything that was in the building.
My point is, that all this plastic furniture, in particular the big kids stuff, is all hydrocarbon based (read: solidified gasoline). The byproducts produced when they burn are incredible.
I’ve seen research tables showing 500 times more smoke production in todays fires and BTU rates that are easily tripled in today’s fires… and I believe them! Not to jump on my MPO pedestal, but the math I’ve seen prooves that an interior attack with less than 200 gpm actual flow is just screaming for failure. Sure, we pull it off 99% of the time with 120-150 gpm, but how about that other 1%?
I know I’m not saying anything we don’t all already know, just offering a reminder of the conditions we are likely to face in a “real” room & contents fire today (not the 1 1/2 pallets and 1/4 bale of hay we’re allowed to train with now). We’ve all got the be on our game these days, especially pushing in ahead of the line.
Be safe Brothers.
Chris
Im a snaaaake.
RSFDNY,
I can echo your words 100%. As for “wondering” keep training and don’t slip into being complacent. The day you carry a youngster out to the bus not knowing if they made it will change your life forever.
it is hard to look under all these spots when doing a primary. with all the smoke in these homes, doing a quick once over is all we can do. it is not until the smoke is cleared out that we can get in there and look real good at all the hiding spots that kids like to hide.
To smoke showing
Yes, it’s not easy.
However if you are in a smoke filled room that is uninvolved in the fire (directly) then you CAN do more than a “quick once over”. Unless you didn’t don your scba and you’re holding your breath. 😉
But to be clear, if you are in a structure/room where the conditions are deteriorating then yes, you may be less than satisfied with the time you could spend being thorough.
It’s something (time/conditions) that you have to balance and live with.
I have to agree with wondering. A primary is down and dirty. Always has always will be. If your jacking around looking in every cubby hole your missing out. If you have info prior or during a search on a hiding spot then so be it. But all this “live with yourself and filling body bags”. Give me a break. A properly done primary is the quickest way to save the most liveable lives.
Quite often chat (or the written word for that matter) particularly on ff web sites, gets bogged down in BS and culminates in lot of chest puffing.
As wondering asks, “why are there posts of “hidden†spaces all the time?”
The authors of this thread (probably) want nothing more than you to keep your mind open.
After all, we always check under ‘beds’.
To quote the recent popular phrase:
“It is what it is.”
…and probably nothing more.
🙂
JDEN;
I hope to be as tough and as good as you in my next 20 years.
RS, this coming from someone who is such a preacher on this thread. How many cliche can you remember. You must watch alot of rescue me. I really don’t think that what I was saying was being tough or better. I would love to hear what your definition of a primary is. There is nothing wrong with extra knowledge of hiding spots or secret rooms. But if someone wants to learn more about actual practical firefighting ops. Dont call him complacent.
Do we really have to get in to this every fucking time? Seriously, Im probably the most immature guy on here, and I know someone will probably argue with me on that, but, jeez guys. Take it or leave or it, read it or forget it. Who gives a shit???? Let me quote what an old captain of mine used to tell me DAILY “Worry about what in the fuck you’re supposed to be doing.” This isn’t a chat room about Justin Beiber’s hair, it’s for firemen. And, YES, I said FIREMEN!!!! Not meaning men are firemen, I mean anyone that performs fire services, because that’s what I call us. GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DMAN72 – “Im probably the most immature guy on here”
Are not!
Are to!
Are not!
(That was me pretending to be Dman there, couple of lines up)
Apologies to DMAN72 and Admin.
A) I dont see an issue with my original post as I was answering “wondering’s” question and emploring him to continue to learn and to not fall victim to complacency.
B) JDEN obviously has a different opinion on things than I do and maybe there is a good reason for it. Maybe not. Only he knows. My reply to him about “good” and “tough” was out of anger in that my contributions to this site have STRICTLY been in the interest of firemen going home and his reply was uncalled for as was mine.
I’ve done and taught this business on many levels for quite some time. I ascended through different ranks, earned certifications, and experienced many aspects of this vocation. Spent my entire career in ghetto neighborhoods and a few other loving communities. I’ve written for half a dozen periodicals including Fire Engineering, Safety Magazines, and so on. Have taught at FDIC and other national / regional venues. Briefly wore a white helmet prior to packing it in. So, I think I have the “definition of a primary” pretty well established in my head.
Not posting to start a pissing match here and I’m finished on this subject. I will however continue to add what I can to ensure safe returns to quarters. My apologies to Admin for having to entertain this crap.
Stay Safe.
cant we go back to talking about pulling meters
FitSsikS,
That was classic. RSFDNY, do your thing, brother. And never apologize. Apologizing for having an opinion is like sleeping with your sister. Sure everyone feels better for a minute, but it just ends up making everyone feel akward.
Great contribution from brother Crump!
Keep up the good work.
That’s sooo cool! I wish I had a bed like that when I was younger. I bet I could still fit underneath…