It May Look Like Wood Frame

Posted-onBy lineBylineeric

For many years the old trick of reading the windows to determine the type of building construction was a semi-reliable method. Typically windows in wood frame were found flush to the building, and windows in block construction were recessed and a sill was present. Well like so many other things in the fire service that has now changed. Engineer Steven Negedly from Orlando (FL) Engine 9 sent in these pictures of a multi family residential building under construction in his area.

Click Here for the details of what it looks like underneath.

23 thoughts on “It May Look Like Wood Frame”

  1. FitSsikS says:

    Now if they would only bring back that old asbestos siding we’d really have a structure that could keep that fire from spreading (in or out!).

    Nm, cement board will do the trick!

  2. Chris says:

    Looks like a proprietary product. Any idea what those panels are called?

  3. firemedic says:

    what is the fire rating on the foam, i am sure at some point it will begin to melt like the spray Styrofoam type insulation that we see from time to time

  4. andy says:

    Their Called Structurally Insulated Panels (SIP’s). Their growing in popularity with fast home building and the new “green” movement. They aslo come with MDF and plywood “cookie wafers”. In adition to structural and ignition issues, remember that these panels will also insulate & re-radiate heat from any fire inside, back to the contents that are burning…increasing chances for flashover.-Knowledge from doing research on SIP’s and “green” building materials during college for Geography & Envi planning degree.

  5. Nate999 says:

    Andy,

    How’d you manage to get that out right before me? Dammit man! I guess I need to learn to type faster…

    Anyway, ditto on Andy’s comment…especially on the oven effect. These buildings are usually sealed tighter/better insulated than most (hence one reason they’re used).

    As far as the window placement, here on the coast, many of the hurricane windows being put in are now set flush (even on block houses). Just like E-9 showed, it’s just another reason to get out in your first due.

    Well, time to go get a copy of Mavis Beacon Typing.

  8. FitSsikS says:

    john/lad/a lad called john?

    Thanks for the link. That said, it’s not quite the same product shown here.

    Fits

  10. PFD023 says:

    Something else to think about with this type of construction……from what I’ve read – often times the walls are heavily dependant on the roof for support. If the roof fails, there is potential for the walls to collapse in fire conditions.
    Would be interesting to see how these panels are viewed in relation to local building codes…..cause although they have some concrete…they aint solid concrete!

  11. DMAN72 says:

    Nice catch. I was just teaching forcible entry the other night, and was lecturing about knowing building construction and the buidlings in their districts. I always tell people that the time to find out things like this is not during an emergency, it’s during preplanning.

  13. PFD023 says:

    Nate999…..SIP’s is different from the pics shown.

  14. forgotten says:

    I must have said this a dozen times before on this site. “Once again, abject proof that we need to continually pre-plan and inspect what is going up in our response area and note it in big fat letters on the response tickets.” There are faux brownstones going up in brooklyn for the past 5-7 years that look old, smell old, and are C-joist supported. All of these are fireman killers. Once again, thanks for sharing good info. Stay safe.

  15. Chris R, says:

    These panels are called precast concrete architectural wall panels or shearwall panels (aka sandwich panels). They are fabricated at a precast concrete fabricator and then shipped to the job site for installation. These are also commonly used in commercial/industrial construction also. They typically can be load bearing walls where the joists or beams are resting on them or they may be attached to a another frame, such as steel for example. they are typically 8″ thick or larger depending on the structural demand the wall excepted to carry by dead or live loads, and/or if they are shearwalls they are expected to transfer wind or seismic loads.

    They panels are also typically reinforced with reinforcing bars or welded wire fabric. They typically have at least 2 inches of insulation in each panel and the R-value and type of insulation may vary depending upon the building code in your municipality.

    As far as being used in residential construction here in Pennsylvania I have not seen it. Very one is still using the typical wood construction methods.

    Chris
    Firefighter/Structural Engineer

  16. DMAN72 says:

    Chris R,
    What the hell do you know about it? You know nothing! (Sorry, Im actually kidding but I figured I’d be a c*ck because everyone argued with the electricians when they said don’t pull meters, so I figured Id argue with an engineer. Being a fellow PA resident, I knew you could handle it)

  17. Crockett says:

    This seems to be a similar type of wall springing up here in SW FL (in the little bit of new construction we have right now in our area) =[

    Thinking interior fire attack:

    1. Consider the oven effect; remember the ‘BBQ in the styrofoam cooler’ trick??

    2. Consider the extra-nasty smoke all this styrofoam gives off during pyrolosis- even outside of the structure; better fire up that SCBA or stand the hell back!!

    3. Consider having no other choice but to breach this wall, not knowing about the concrete slab in the middle; whoops!!

    Whenever you get a chance to PIP with your crew, do it- during the construction phase if possible!! You can knock out an entire development by looking at just one house sometimes. Take Building Construction ASAP. You’ll be amazed at what you didn’t see before…

    I used this guy’s website w/o his expressed permission, but it’s for educational purposes, right?? I think I’m safe LoL.

    http://dinklocker.com/gallery/v/DinklockerAddition/Construction+035.jpg.html

    Stay Low.

  18. Crockett says:

    BTW, I’m aware that the first photo the above link takes you too is part of a foundation, but we have seen it used as entire walls- especially in structures right on the water. FYI =]

  20. PFD023 says:

    Guys lets not confuse ICF – poured concrete surrounded by foam, with the product shown in the picture. Big difference is going to be the ability of these sandwich panels to support loads during fire conditions and how they are assembled on the site. Not sure how many floors they can be used for…anyone know?
    As mentioned they go together like a Lego kit and use various types of fastening devices.
    Easy to put up = easy to come down????

  21. AndyB says:

    There are a lot of variables on this one. Without knowing the heat characteristics of these panels we won’t know the capabilities of the structure under attack by fire. I hope they are out there but I am just shooting off the hip. If light to medium smoke is showing and we do an interior attack, how is the structure going to hold up. Do we make an attack? I would depending on the information I had. My first thoughts were how do we approach this structure as a RIT team, if we need to RIT the wall from the outside what kind of resistance are these exterior panels going to give us? If we do decide to “create” a door what kind of structural integrity are we going to have left? Looks like more research is needed. is this the next revolution in lightweight firefighter killing material? It seems to get more dangerous every year.

  22. CEP says:

    I not sure about the window sill on the extior showing a brick or block house. My house, couple of the other guys I work with all have sills on the extior. Also most the older houses around the station also do. These are all wood frame age rage from 1839 to present. Just my observation.

  23. Chris R says:

    These panels are assembled on sites by welding of steel plates rods, tubes, etc. The details are not complicated but hard to explain without a picture to show. The connections on site really very depending on the depend on the panel from loads.

    If you are going to cut through these panels to make a doorway for rapid egress you may cut down a good size of its structural intgerity depending upon if the wall is supporting floors. If the panels are to just resist wind and seismic loads than I don’t see a problem cutting through them. It might a take awhile do the fact that you will have to go through 3″ of concrete on the inside and outside plus its reinforcing bars. Then the insulation.

    As far as how many floors the panels are spanning over. It is typically floor to floor and if it is a one story structure than the panel typically goes from below grade (if fastening to the foundation) to the roof to form a parapet.

    Chris. R.
    Firefighter/Structural Engineer

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