Here’s a set-up you don’t run into much. We were unable to get inside and really evaluate this building. Apparently they built like this because they thought it looked good? The front door is on the left side of the first picture in the build out on side B (A/B corner.) The only other entrance or exit is the rear sliding glass door on the C/D corner. There is a garage in the A/D corner. If anyone can elaborate on this style of building please do. From the looks of it, the guy who built this was a roofer.
It’s very simply a Chalet Style home . The reason is snow loads. In areas that get large amounts of snow this was a building of choice. We have many of them here in the Pocono’s. However they are not as popular today as they were in the 70’s . On the bright side it’s easy to get to the roof for anyone afraid of heights.lol
Something tells me that snow loads were not the primary factor used when deciding on this design given the presence of the pine trees in the yard. However, still a rarity to see this design in construction. I have personally dealt with fires in on two occassions in this “chalet” or “A” frame style home (both at the same residence). The most challenging issue was smoke removal in the upper reaches on the interior of the dwelling. The absence of gables and windows that didn’t open created a unique ventilation challenge not often seen.
Snow load? You guys crack me up…..see the palm trees and the satellite dish about 6 inches above the ground? My guess is the builder built this as cheap as they could….no drywall…no insulation and since plywood and shingles are cheaper than windows …well the roof explains than part.
Oh ya if you wanna talk snow load…I’ve got some I’m willing to sell…8″ already and we aren’t at the end of Nov yet!
Stay safe!
This style house is found mostly in Switzerland, I believe. And yes, snow loading is why those type houses are built the way they are. I don’t know why anyone would want that style if they’re not living in the mountains, though. I am glad you mentioned ventilation problems because i was wondering about venting as i was looking at the pictures.
The original poster asked for comments on the style of house. Pat commented, correctly, why these types of homes were built. He didn’t say it was THE reason THIS particular house was built.
I have never posted here but the prevalance of jerks jumping all over some people is getting annoying for chrissakes.
Well lets get to tactics. If presented a situation where ventilation was needed, how would you go about it? Obviously, we’ll have to take a different angle (no pun intended) if we go vertical. I understand that we can’t ALWAYS get the roof but if we needed to? SO…do we go vertical or do we go horizontal? Is PPV an option? Let’s hear it!
We have 2 A-frame style structures in my first in. 1 being a Gas station the other, part of an apartment complex. I live in North Carolina so I dont think that snow load was the driving force behind its selection.
As far as vertical venting, why not just throw a 24 footer and make some triangle cuts? I say triangle because the angle would seem steep enough to eliminate the halligan as a step to make the furthest cut.
Dohhh, Snow load? How about pine needle load? Look at the roof. Vent one end, squirt into the other
I’m more concerned about the fire load in the 2 (visible) roof valleys!
🙂
Yep, that’s an “A” frame chalet.
…Or up here in Canada an “eh” frame. Nyuk nyuk.
GrumpyChief…my post wasn’t meant to jump all over anyone…just some friendly sarcasm…to “lighten the load” so to speak.
After doing some research…yes the original design does have snow load benefits…they are cheaper and provide relatively less maintenance than other designs.
Ventilation…I’m a newbie but considering the fact that you have relatively little ceiling space area to floor space area (fire load) I’m assuming that any heat/smoke produced will most likely sink to a lower level when compared to a similar type of fire in structure with vertical walls….make sense?
Not sure if this type of roof would fail before a trussed type roof. I’m thinking that the rafters on this house are completely exposed with no attic space. Is this type of roof meant to shed it’s load as opposed to suppor a load? Something to consider when deciding to put someone up there to start cutting.
Pretty good chance of of having knee walls.
I think we can all agree this is an A frame structure. Typically built in areas with snow loads (mine). The truss system is usually doubled up 2×10’s or larger. Newer homes are using full dim. timbers 6×10’s or 8×12’s for esthetics. Backed (because the timbers or trusses are exposed on the inside) with either 2×6 tounge & groove or plywood (cheaper) then shingles or shakes. You can horiz. vent by taking second floor window and combining fog stream with PPV from “A” door. Vert. vent by opening up roof at peak. Most trusses have a greater span because of timbers and 2×6 TG, typically 48″ to 72″. The roof system is quite strong (strength of a triangle). You can also breach lower roof to access lower floor (RIT??) be aware of opening into a closet or cabinets. Compacted snow isn’t as soft to land in as it looks 🙂 be safe brothers!
If you ventilated this structure, How much of Roof strength would you lose from high heat compared to a regular one story spec house? Does this Roof pose more of a safety issue than others?
Knee walls might not be in this house. It might have vaulted ceilings. As for venting it…..Thats easy ground ladders ground ladders ground ladders!!.
What about a trench cut? Looking at the first picture say your fire load greats you in the A/B corner at the main entrance. And you place your cut around where the stain in the shingles stops. Thus venting the structure, possibly preventing faster thermal layering from the construction, and preventing spread into the rest of the structure. Just trying to hear some thoughts.
Wow, this is different. The good thing about it is doesn’t leak much.
This pitch is where one of those pruning chain saws on a pole might come in handy for reaching out off of a ground ladder. Make your two vertical cuts either from the ladder or with the pole saw from the ground. Climb the ladder to the appropriate height, then use the pole saw to make the horizontal cuts and even a triangle cut if you needed to. Would that work?
Previous posters are correct-it’s an A frame or A frame chalet style home. I’ve helped build a few of these in the mountains of colorado and here in oklahoma, so snow is not the only reason for the roof, economics usually is. No extra costs for walls when the roof acts as them. They are usually dimensional lumber and very stable. Most have at least one loft built in them at the end and the larger ones have two. The lofts are nothing more than a deck built inside the home. They are relatively easy to ventilate by taking out the upper windows or laying a 24’ladder against the building and cutting from the ladder. Most likely no ceilings to punch out. Fire load is usually high in these since little sheet rock is used and coverings are most likely wood or veneers. I’ve even seen them finished out inside with sheet metal from barns…..
Always being one to argue against going to the roof. Not because I’m afraid of heights, but it’s not needed alot of the time. I’d say break the windows up by the roof. Maybe it’s just me. Also I would view this like a bowstring truss as far as interior ops. It may be tolerable at the first floor level, but hotter than hell at the ridge rafter, which could compromise the roof. Just something to think about.
Dman72, I would agree with you, windows are the quickest and easiest to perform ventilation especially if manning is a consideration. It’s not nearly as dangerous as a bowstring or any other truss system, since the decking is the first to fail and not the roof/wall joists. Thus a ladder long enough to span from the ground to the ridge provides a good margin of safety. Heat in the loft is hotter than hell but knock down is usually achieved from the ground level since interior wall are non existent. I’d be interested to hear if anyone has made a fire in one of these that suffered a collapse of the main structural supports.
Yea, no snow there at all. This property is located in Daytona Beach. My parents used to have a place right around the corner. Now back to the issue at hand….I would guess that a combination of PPV and top window breakage would work the best here.
well its likely anyways that its gonna vent itself after a few mins of involvement.
We had a fire in a similar structure in July.
Ironically it was in fact a crematorium.
Depending on the interior layout these “A” frames can end up being like little church fires.
m
True deezil but thats if you’ve got a rockin’ fire goin’. I know we all play the “what if” game on here but what about a relatively small fire or a fire we catch early? One that hasn’t self-vented. I like CFDFF’s idea of popping the top window and facilitating the sliding door on the C/D side for PPV.
I also like the idea FFighter32 had about breaching the lower roof should RIT operations be needed. Might not always be the BEST route but we aren’t always handed the best options are we? Love hearing everyone else’s ideas.
Personally, I’ve never ran on a fire here in the 8 years I’ve been on. For one thing there aren’t that many around here. But I have been in a couple of A-frames on medical calls. They’re interesting thats for sure.
Hmm…try this:
Nope, ok then this:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/crematorium2.jpg
I’m not sure why anyone would want to use vertical vent on a Chalet style home. It’s very rare that they’d have a fully enclosed attic space, to the windows in the gables would suffice. I guess if you have a rule: take the roof when the fires in the “A” all fires would meet the criteria! has anyone seen these built with lightweight truss joists? I’d think that the angle would be too steep for the load carrying design of a TJ. In dimensional construction I’d not be anymore concerned with collapse than any stick built.
Lastly, for those who’d throw a ground ladder and cut the vent, please explain what you’d use and how you’d accomplish this given the extreme pitch.
Not that I would necessarily want to vertically ventilate this structure, but if I had to I would lay a 24′ ext ladder from ground to pitch, over an exteior wall on the A or D side of the picture for safety sake. I’m not certain how stable the roof would be in the middle. A ladder over an exterior load bearing wall wouldn’t leave me too concerned. Couldn’t necessarily get over the seat of the fire, but if it is a vaulted ceiling it would probably suffice.
the few that ive seen and been in have a wide open floor plan on the ground level with no more than two bedrooms on a “loft” on one end of the house. both ends didnt have a ceiling and the end opposite of the bedrooms was almost entirely glass. the roof wasnt composed of plywood instead it was 2″X6″ T&G boards with conventional asphalt shingles on the exterior. the “trusses” were 4″X6″ beams with about 6-8 foot spacing. dont know if i would classify it as heavy timber construction but its not missing it by far! now on to ventilation, if its burning hard, open the roof at the uppermost point off of an extension ladder. a chain saw or K-12 type would make short work of this. most likely its gonna be pretty sturdy given the T&G boards and beams. dont forget the eavs if you dont feel comfortable on the roof. open both ends and it should clear out pretty quick. GOOD LUCK!!!!
I made a fire in one of these. It was a two story with an attic. Very wierd. We vented it using the windows and a ppv fan.
Another issue that presents itself is due to the lack of windows there’s only a few egress points. If something did go wrong there’s a possibility of just cutting a hole in the wall/roof and yanking the brother out.
I have noticed these buildings to be very stable and tolerate a lot of fire.
Good topic.
Brotherhood above all.
Be safe.
One thing I’ve noticed in this type of construction is the a-frames with walk out basements tend to have skylights with large (up to ten foot) shafts which could pose a large problem with ventilation and overhaul.
OK, please tell us how to use a chainsaw or K12 off an extension ladder at that pitch? Our rule of thumb is that if you can walk it, you use the K saw, if you need a roof ladder use a chainsaw but if it’s over 12 pitch anything you do short of straddling the peak or using the aerial will be sketchy. Maybe without an SCBA on your back? I’m still venting the “gable” and entering the other gable or main door.
And bearing walls vs. roof? These are built truly like an “A”. With the walls/roof as the sides and the loft as the horizontal. Structurally, I like it. It’s like most old stick built roofs with rafters and collar ties.
I vote for aerial ladders…….. JUST KIDDING
It’s hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like the peak is only 16′ tall. Estimating from the 8′ tall lattice work fencing material.
If the fire hasn’t extended through the roof, then I’m going to leave the windows and use plain old PPV. Relatively small structure, probalby pretty tight – easy to pressurize.
It’s an A frame no matter where you build the ugly thing. How its framed out on the inside or finished is up to the owner/builder. In the Sieras of Ca, I have scene all difrent types and sizes. By the way they do shed snow, oh yah spend a winter in one without insulation thats always fun. Don’t get caught grabbing the 24 every time. the distance to the peak of the roof is a function determinded by the width of the gable end at the base and the height of the peak from the top of the footing, K. Oh yeah there not all on flat lots either. Some are built with a traditionall wall on the bottom 941/4 stud length, some as high as 10′ giving you a modified A frame or more of the chalet look. Taking the windows up high works as long as its cordinated, just covering the deductable will get someone hurt.
Sounds like we need to run a post on cutting from the ladder too. Oh yah watch out for the barge rafters this one looks like a good 2 ft overhang. barge rafters are nailded back 1.5 x the distance of the overhang, usually. you dont want to screw with these, there all diffrent ive seen them nailded off prety poorly even with 8 penny nails.
As for the strength of the roof system well its a triangle, the strongest geometric shape, as for all the mention of tusses, most of these are cut roofs built before trusses were popular the triangle windows are kinda a period thing kinda like the spade window in a van it was cool back then. Attics yeah some have them and some dont, the ones with out are more prevalent in the west. Anyhow there strong but to many variables could effect them over time I would not want to be the one guessing, remodels and all is there interior collums picking up the load is there a loft supported or ledgered? I cant imagine a house this size would have no interior walls, im all for taken a time out with the door open and all, but the wife still dosen’t like it. Im sure the bedroom has a door and some walls too maybe some insulation even to cut dowwn on the noise. For most of us we will be inside on a EMS call before its on fire so take a good look. Good luck and stay low.
High school physics is coming back to haunt me…the triangle is one of the strongest forms…but it all depends on which direction the load is applied….correct?
Apply the load vertically at the very peak and it’s strong. Apply a load along one of the sides (24 ft ladder pushing against the peak) and I’m wondering how strong it would still be. Factor in exposed rafters many of these have and you may wanna consider ppv as your first choice.
So with that type of logic what do you do on a truss roof? The A frame roof has angles of close to 60 degrees, steeper than most traditional truss roofs and is built to shed and support the static and dynamic eviromental weights of snow. I appreciate the concern for exsposed structural members. HoweverI would bring a box of rocks with you to vent with. I’m not a big fan of the PPV without knowing where the seat of the fire is, and having a known vent for the prodducts your going to start pushing to go to. not to mention having a line in place, I have no doubt you would consider all this. I think I will risk the ladder and saw trick for now.
its for snow..look at the hydrent in front..its a dry barrel for cold areas..SNOW
CFDFF-Is this the old house by the golf course on Beville? small world…
jones-the dry barrels are the norm here in Central Florida, good eye though.
My guess is that this house was probably built to protect the occupants from errant golfballs hit by “golfers” like me.
Good discussion. I never thought that this style had an actual purpose, which I can see how it would up north. I also would have to agree with the PPV crowd. With the right intake and exhaust openings (and coordinating with the attack crew) it would clear things up much faster than going vertical from the outside. Thanks for the learnin’ and stay safe.
Nate99 – Yes, it is on Beville between the tracks and Ridgewood.
I have read the posts regarding this house. The issues with venting and egress as well as others. Lets add another deminsion. What if the living space is below ground? What if in an effort to do their part in a greener community, this dwelling is in a warmer climent and they are using the shade, sharp angles and the coolness of the earth to eliminate the need for summer cooling. Now, try to get to the living space, try to search. I would bet very few of us have been inside such a dwelling. I might be inclined to knock on the door and explain myself, perhaps get a tour. Maybe most of these questions go away and you can preplan this.
watch the story before you try & judge “Bunch of Armchair Firefighters”
http://www.wthr.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?clipId1=3181245&at1=News&vt1=v&h1=Maxed+Out%3A+Part+One&d1=301233&redirUrl=www.wthr.com&activePane
Great vid.
Admin may want to move that story to it’s own special place.
Warning “firefighter humo(u)r ahead”
That Dr may want to follow some of his own advice.
Fits
Ron, I was going to jump on you for name calling and assuming everyone is going to judge. As true as that is, it’s just as bad to jump to that conclusion. BUT, this was an excellent post. We get to stuck on tactics on this site, and we should spend some time on taking care of ourselves. FitSsikS, I agree 100%, this should be it’s own post. VES, do it…do it.
Agreed- great posting.
Back to the structure, we’ve got several A-frames here in SW Florida- namely Lehigh Acres. The brush is VERY similar to the pic above, and these are difficult exposures to protect in a brush fire due to the amount of surface area. Plus, people still have not learned to adhere to Forestry’s recommended 30′ buffer zone around their house, which doesn’t help the situation.
And yes, dry barrels are the prevalant hydrants here in South FL. Ironic, I guess…
Oh yeah- the “For Sale” sign in the yard is also a dead giveaway for FL… LoL~
If it is 1â€x6â€or 2″x6″ tongue & groove with open beams just throw a wall ladder and DICE it.
Good video!
Funny how its always an overweight doc telling us to watch our weight/smoking doc tellin us not to/etc.
Currently on a 96, work 72 often, and have done as much as 360, that 48 hour limit is quite interesting.
By the way….dry barrel hydrants are EVERYWHERE. No matter what the weather.
Brotherhood above all.
Be safe.
At least they have a hydrant sitting in front…
Stay safe, hope all had a great turkey day.
The video being discussed above was moved to it’s own post… http://www.vententersearch.com/?p=361
Still learning- unless I scrolled past it some where I didn’t see any more comments about the trench cut thought. Trench cuts are typically a defensive tactic to stop the lateral spread of a fire where multiple occupancies are in danger of becoming involved, usually in a strip mall, apartment bldgs, etc. These cuts are very manpower and equipment intensive and require a lot of work be done very quickly before the fire spreads past the area that your venting. These cuts also need to extend completely from one side of the roof to the other to prevent the possibility of the fire spreading around the outside or “un-cut” areas. This is somewhat difficult to do on a pitched roof.
I don’t know about the PPV either. How many hidden areas are in this bldg? Knee walls were mentioned above but what else might we find? If in fact there is a cathedral type ceiling in here, that is a lot of heat and smoke up high that will take a while to get out even with the PPV fan(s) going. How big are the entry and exit points for PPV anyway? It sounds like they’re big enough from the description but a fan in the front door area combined with a line or two going in is going to cause issues. The lattice work would probably need to be removed to position a fan. Ground ladders will need to be long enough to go all the way to, and extend past, the ridge line to be somewhat safe. I don’t know, I opt for taking the windows at the high point with a longer pike pole or ladder and let it vent on it’s own. May need to cut the center sections out between the windows though to create a large enough opening though.
I knew that house the minute I saw it. It is near the intersection of beville rd. and ridgewood ave. just west of ridgewood near that golf course. I always thought it was a funny looking house for florida. It would be really interesting to see the inside and how the walls are built up.
Man, a bunch of readers from Daytona!
I knew I had seen the house somewhere before, so I took the quick drive to make sure I wasn’t imagining things.
would’t it be interesting if this was only the top half of the house…..heck….a good trench cut would slice this home in half!
Food for thought but with the new energy saving ideas outthere you may start to find home being built down as opposed to up. By putting walls under the ground you use the ground temp and the soil as insulation you only have to heat the home up about 20 degrees no matter how cold you get outside and cool it alot less cause the ground is cooler then the air in summer. In FL I would say that isn’t the case since you don’t see basements but in the north east it is not at all out of the question.
We have several of these buildings in the county I work and the county I live in here in Central Texas. Snow and roof load is not a factor in the ones around here. The primary reason for ours was strictly cost. There are less building materials used since there is only a roof and no walls. We have not had to work in one of the structures yet so I can’t offer any further information.
It’s the old house for the caretaker of the golf course. It was built so that there are no windows facing incoming golf balls. I talked to the owner when I ran a medical call there many years ago.
would that be considered Truss roof? if so thats not to good
Yes, it’s called an A-Frame. Yes, it’s is one of the most inexpensive house designs to build (is that a bad thing?!?). They probably thought it would look good because A-Frames are gorgeous. Compared to the embarrassingly vulgar architectural anachronisms they’ve been building the last eight years, the design seems not just modernist, but futuristic.
Maybe it’s the type of house we should all be living in.
Our district is in the Central Mountains of Colorado (Breckenridge). We have a ton of these in our area – A frame style homes. They seem to be going “out of vogue” now, but a lot were put in during the 70’s.
The guy’s right – they’re all roof. And due to the heavy snow loads they can withstand, guess what the roof’s made of? Heavy beam construction and typically tongue and groove ceiling/decking with wood shake for shingles. Be aware of these, it makes good work for any saw, even with carbide chains. K saws do well if you have a wood blade. Oh, and another bonus, the pitches are very steep to work on!
Stay strong, stay safe!
maybe i missed it in all the comments and the description of the pics. is this house in Maine?
Nope. It’s in sunny Daytona Beach, FL.
Nate999…..I hope it stays sunny at least until Feb 1st….my pastey Canadian skin could use some colour while I’m visiting your neck of the woods.