Here is a great video of a close call on the roof. Forest Park (OH) firefighters were performing a vertical vent on a residential fire, when the decking started to fail. The firefighter knew enough to spread out and was caught and SAVED by the trusses. Huh, imagine that, the decking is what failed, and the trusses are what saved him… Maybe those trusses aren’t so dangerous after all. Maybe the fire service should be mad at the cheap and thin OSB decking instead of the trusses… Kudos goes to Forest Park for getting the roof, and knowing what to do in case things go bad. Training made the difference!
[videofile]http://www.vententersearch.com/videos/forrestparkroof.wmv[/videofile]
Video from WKRC Local 12 Cincinnati
Gotta love the news crew, The Firefighter didn’t want his name mentioned so they zoom in on his name. Thank god he made it out safe.
You’re talking about the same media that on Sept 11 when the president was being secretly transported to different places, provided detailed maps on exactly where he was and where he was going next.
I wouldn’t be too quick to blame all failures on OSB and let the trusses off the hook. Every once in a while we see someone ejected from a car live, who would have dies if they’d been belted in, but at the end of the day, far more people are saved by seatbelts than killed. Trusses and sheathing together make the system which is dangerous to us under fire conditions. The sheathing is help up by the trusses, the trusses are held in place by the sheathing, failure of either can cause catastrophic failure of the system as a whole.
Could someone post a link? My computer won’t play it from the website.
STOP CUTTING PEAKED PD ROOFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LINK to Video-
http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Questions-Raised-About-Digital-Fire-Radios-After/W9kEkcIEO0SPnwO8CEge9w.cspx?rss=30
The house was what is known as light weight construction. What were they doing off the ladder truck without a roof ladder. Was the house self venting already? It appeared that could of already self vented. Good training would never have put him on a roof without a roof ladder or at least working from the aerial. Maybe these cowboys should do some training and stop watching back draft and ladder 49. They don’t work for FDNY.
Ugh…here we go again…
“seasoned veteran”, where do I begin? There’s a whole slew of inconsistencies in your comments that just don’t add up. I’m not sure that you know what FDNY stands for, because cowboys rustle cattle, Backdraft was Chicago, and Ladder 49 was Baltimore 🙂
On a serious note, I think you may have missed the point of the post, to consider the failure of components other than the big bad trusses.
Who doesn’t put out their arms when they fall….. Just sayin
Vent Enter Search may be just a little quick to criticize everything except the tactic here. We EXPECT light-weight roofs to fail. There are FAR better ways to vent a SFD than getting on the roof. There IS a time and place for roof op’s but seldom on a lightweight SFD. Positive Pressure Attack (yes I said it!) is one progressive, safe way to do it. And yes, I’m a truckie who loves going to the roof as much as the next guy but only when it’s truly necessary. PPA puts the truckies INSIDE searching for life instead of on the roof.
Coordinated vertical ventilation and fire attack is the quickest most efficient way we can usually do our job. Although there is several ways to do any job, these brothers chose the quickest way to mitigate the problem and create survivable space for any possible pts inside the house. Good job brothers! Maybe use a roofer next time (but that’s easy to say monday morning!). We learn from each call, thank you for sharing. Mad dog- let’s not feed the fire then have overweight truckies plug the hallways:)…………just sayin
I totaly agree with Mad Dog. Aggressive PPV with an Aggressive interior fire attack with high gpm flow would have been a better choice for this. Vertical ventilation has a small role in todays fire service. We need to move forward with the times and find use the safer ways. Truckies should be inside looking for victims and not on the roof wasting time. I ride on an Engine(no laughing) and we do our own PPV with the fire attack and it works great. We can accomplish this much faster then setting up ladders and getting on the roof. PPV might feed the fire a little but it provides that same fresh air to victims that are mostly likely lying on the floor. Watch Austing FD (texas) training videos where they show the advatages with thermal imagers. PPV clearly works better then Vertical ventilation.
Lets also keep in mind the amount of contraindications when using PPV. Positives and negatives to both I agree. LT your wrong if you say vertical ventilation is a thing of the past. PPV is not always going to be your safer way.
Get In.
Confine Fire.
Search.
Water On Fire.
TAKE WINDOWS.
Pull Ceilings. (This may hurt)
Know Your Building Construction.
Know Your Occupancy Type.
More Water On Fire.
LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR.
FIRE KILL.
This may also hurt……STOP CUTTING PD ROOFS.
If you MUST. Be ON THE AERIAL OR TL BASKET.
I’ve never used PPV personally so I cant comment from EXPERIENCE. However, I can say that I find it mildly insane to turn a fan on at a fire.
The arguments about which technique works best will continue as long as there are fires that need to be vented. The CORRECT one to use is the one that is best for the incident at hand. If the fire is near “flashover” blowing more air at it is not the answer (there is a good video of how NOT to do PPV on this site). If you are trying to get in fast AND are able to control the “exhaust port” then PPV will ALWAYS be faster. AGAIN, IF all involved have trained extensively TOGETHER and can COORDINATE vent with the “attack” and search then things will go well. A bad vertical vent IS “safer” than a bad PPV vent. The key is to FIGHT THE WAY YOU TRAIN. If you haven’t trained you aren’t worth having in the fight. Stay home and watch Emergency DVD’s (now there’s a clue to how long I’ve been around) TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN! That’s the only way you’ll know what to do.
p.s. If the fire is already blowing from the gable / end of roof, there is NO need for PPV or opening the roof.
Roof Ladders have their place on the fireground. What is the purpose of the roof ladder? If a trussed roof fails, wouldn’t the roof ladder and the members still fall in?
Since the roof ladder perfoms only if it reaches from peak to gutter, whats the point if your ladder is not long enough? So if the ladder doesn’t reach, then the only purpose of the ladder is stablization and not protection from collapse. Plus, basic roof construction would allow us to understand that if a truss systems fails then the member and ladder would also fall thru, resulting in the same situation.
PPV vs. Vertical Vent… Never going to be right answer here. Fire Service and the monday morning quarterbacks…
In that area were Forest Park is, vertical vent is one of the few choices for ventilation. But, also in that area is a department that pushed for PPV attack, they put members in jeopardy and create unnessary damage every year for incorrectly preforming this tactic.
As for the roof comments, basic fire serivce tactics show that heat and smoke rise when an vertical opening occurs, allowing members below to preform their duties under less stressful conditions. If it isn’t safe to be on the roof, then it can’t be safe to be under it!
The rest of us in US can’t send 60 firefighters to a two story SFD. We rarley have enough members to complete what RSFDNY stated in a first alarm assignemnt ( in a timely manner ).
I don’t typically post on here but after reading some replies, feel that I need too. I’m relatively young but work for a department that does make occasional fire. I’ve seen both methods of vent work well, however when situations are not ideal (like nearly 95% of our fires) vertical vent is the quickest, most effective way to ventilate a structure. And I’m pretty sure you don’t need a roof ladder for a roof angle that is significantly less than 45 degrees. “But what if the roof collapses?”. If a roof completely collapses, that roof ladder isn’t going to float in the air, your going down regardless. You can absolutely ventilate lightweight construction with a quick response and the right manpower. Cut the hole and get down. Or work off the aerial. Clearly if you have lightweight construction and the attic space is involved you may have to reevaluate. My running area doesn’t have much lightweight but we try to use the same tactics on them as we do our heavier wood framed homes.
Oh, and “stop cutting peaked roofs”???? Should we only cut flat roofs?? Why don’t we just do away with truck companies and everyone just go engine only!
The reason for using a roof ladder regardless of roof angle is because if you actually stand on the ladder, your weight is spread out over a significantly larger area and as a result, a roof that seems good but actually is marginal will be less stressed than if you just tromp up there thumping on it. If the roof does collapse, you also have a means of escape following you in, other than rooting through the debris with no hoseline to follow to safety(provided you didn’t fall straight into full engulfment)
Will a roof ladder ever be the perfect solution? Nope, but it’s a tool that can (and will) help if the structure permits deployment. Even if it doesn’t reach all the way across the roof, it still will provide some measure of additional safety during roof operations.
It’s pretty easy to have an accepted fact that the roof will be in no better physical condition to access and ventilate than when you first get on-scene… so I agree that expedited access, and departure, from the roof is paramount to safe and effective vertical ventilation.
Situations vary but if things are sideways from the get-go (bad fire condition/construction/structural integrity), don’t be scared to vent sideways as well. You just have to know how to do it effectively, and take more care in deployment and situational monitoring both from an IC/Operations Point of view, as well as crew doing interior.
As to the last comment… Good luck getting a Truck down some of the roads when I have to use 6×6 on the engine. Can you say “buried to the axles”?
My department is effectively engine only. Every engine has ladders, tankers have bigger ladders. Our two trucks rarely see fires due to necessity and accessibility. We all get trained on roof operations, VES, etc etc etc. Such is life in a rural area, but we perform effectively and save structures and lives with our modified deployment style.
Which is why I’m here, to try to learn from the focused role firefighters so that I can bring what I learn here to training, then to a fire… and be able to perform more effectively across the full spectrum of incidents we encounter.
Engineguy…..I have to disagree with a number of your statements. You first say that you are young and have an occasional fire. You then go on to elaborate about Roof Operations as if youve cut a few hundred of both peaked and flat roof that are constructed of both old style and newer lightweight construction. You also claim to have seen both methods work well……What methods are you talking about? Verticle, Horizontal, PPV, Hydraulic, Mechanical, Coffin Cut, Louvered Cut?????? You claim verticle vent is the quickest way to vent a structure…….Cutting a roof is faster then taking windows????? Roof angles????? 45 degrees????? no roof ladder??????EVER????? Have you ever been on any roof with ice or snow on it???? Blanket statements by you are dangerous to operating memberships.
I can “sbsolutely” vent light weight constructed buildings????DO you ever read????? Truss construction is an ABSOLUTE fireman killer…..Waldbaums Fire in Brooklyn. Hackensack Ford Dealership. Charleston Furniture Store……Shall I continue???? Cut and get off???? Have you ever cut a bowstring trussed occupancy??? Have you ever cut an open steel webbed bar joist roof? Have you ever cut laminate wood I-Beam, Ubiquitous C-Joist, Truss Loft or peaked Gusset plateetd 2 x 3″ roofing structures????? Please tell me you havent. When one truss fails, they ALL FAIL without sagging, creaking or any warning whatsoever. Most trussed buildigns are disposable. FIREMEN ARE NOT.
You claim that your SOP is the same for trussed sturctures as it is standard framing. Please tell me that isnt true either.
Please dont take this as a personal attack. This website is for learnign and improving our vocation. I’ve been doing this for 26 years. Started in an Engine COmpany. Then worked in a Truck. Was an Officer and a Chief Instructor. Ive cut a whole bunch of roofs. In rain,snow, and a hundred degrees. I’ve had the misfortune of firemen dying at the same fires I was operating at. We die and we die in violent fashion.
If you are a young eager guy and want to be better and go home every night, please do some homework on what Im speaking about above. Your opinion may very well get soemone killed and it may be yourself.
Stay Safe and keep drilling.
Just put out today…
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RSFDNY, I believe your jumping the gun a little bit. By both, I mean vertical and ppv. Since that was the basic discussion about the two. And did I really ” elaborate” on roof operations? And nowhere did I mention SOPs of my dept. We do try to operate uniformly with riding positions, first in, second in duties. Now that that’s out of the way. You cleary have more time on than me. Nearly 3 times. And I do believe you have valid arguments. But to suggest that we not cut peaked roofs or private dwelling roofs, stumps me. Nearly all of our fires are private dwellings with peaked roofs. And if you’ve been on that long you KNOW that things get better if a hole is opened up. I am blessed to work for a dept that has minimum manning (4) on every company, and still maintain to have an abundance of ladder companies that usually beat the engines in. So, in a way I’m spoiled. The saws running on the roof as I’m masking up at the front door, it’s a beautiful sound. I have cut gusseted trusses, I’ve been on an engine co. underneath a trussed roof while vertical vent is performed. We cut, and get down. Obviously if footing is an issue (snow, ice, angle, rain, etc…) we use a roof ladder. The point of my post was to defend the firemen for doing what he was doing. A bi level home is pretty common where I’m from and we cut them. Wouldn’t think twice. Unless I saw attic involvement.
This was my department and my unit day. I was not at the fire (thanks Kelly day) but I feel that I have a little more information than that of people in other states. After this fire we took the incident very serious and critiqued what I would like to think every angle. Was this incident a bad example of vertical ventilation? ABSOLUTELY. I can tell you that about a week before this fire my ladder crew cut a hole directly above the steps to clear the steps and allow us to search FOR VICTIMS. If this hole was not timely and placed were it was, making the steps would have been rough and in zero visibility. After the hole the heat automatically lifted and visibility was about 2 feet off the floor. So yes there is a place for vertical ventilation still. I agree not every fire though. We run the majority of our fires with 3 firemen and 1 officer. The officer and can man force and search for fire/life. Driver gets to the roof and gives a report and decides if he vents the roof or not. The OV is dedicated to horizontal vent. This has been effective for us.
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A couple things, someone mentioned PPA. We do not deploy fans on active fires here. One reason is the lack of understanding as a whole in our area, and second we have 10 -11 people on duty at a time. We run 3 engine 2 ladders 1 RAT and 1 ALS unit per fire. So we depend heavily on mutual aid. We can not get the training and tactics down as a whole and can have up to 5 different departments at a fire (try getting three unit days on the same page, let alone that many departments). So it could work awesome for some but not for us.
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The roof ladder came up. It has already been stated that there was not a roof ladder, and that is correct. The roof ladder did not have a ridge pole to hang on and did not reach the gutter line. So no it would not have helped. On this house it would have been nothing more than a foot hold, which wasn’t warrented since the pitch was not that bad.
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We train and promote using our aerial to ventilate. Someone already said it but it was worth mentioning again, if it is not safe to be on then it’s not safe to be in. Another point that we trained on and since this incident have trained on again is that the building is lightweight and can and will fail quickly. If we can get the tip of the aerial to the point that we need the hole then we don’t have to touch the roof.
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Another issue that we found was the lack of sounding the roof AFTER they made it to the spot they wanted to cut the hole. Sounding took place to get there but when they went to push the hole through he walked above the hole. Putting him in a spot that was not sounded.
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After this fire we also told them to not go “above” the hole to push it through since this sometimes puts the fire between them and the exit, and plus puts all the products of combustion in their face, rather be under the cuts and push it through that way to keep the stuff coming out (hopefully) away from you.
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The biggest issue that came up was the lack of situational awareness. I have made it a priority for this to not happen again in our department or in our area. Learn from this and keep from getting tunnel vision.
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This incident has not stopped us from going to the roof, but it has proven that we must stay focused, sound the roof, make quick cuts and get off the roof. Situational awareness can not be harped on enough. I believe this fire should have been cut, but from the aerial ladder.
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seasonedveteran, I can assure you that my department takes training very seriously and works hard to provide the best service that we can provide. I am sure that you work for a department that has never had a close call or anything like that so I applaud you for your perfection Sir.  PS: I realize I do not work for FDNY, but I can not say that I don’t like backdraft or L-49. Pretty good story lines I think. So no I will not stop watching them.
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For those that take this and learn from our near miss, thank you and I hope you don’t have to experience one yourselves. For those that are going to try and bash my fire department from this one incident please review your unit and department first, since I am sure there are areas that you can improve upon. ÂÂ
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Captain Thomas Jackson
Forest Park Fire
Unit 1
I am a long-time reader, first-time post’er’…
Probably the most important thing I can say before I step up to my soapboax would be that I 100% agree with Captain Jackson.
I’m not going to change anyone’s mind on this site, chances are if you happen to be a “seasonedveteran” or what have you, your opinion is already made, and you have demonstrated in your posts against “brother” firemen that you aren’t really interested in hearing our side of things or learning a new perspective for that matter.
They ran into a problem, made a mistake, went too far, call it whatever you want, BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: They stayed calm and mitigated the issue immediately.
I find it interesting that so many are quick to say we are incompetent and reckless when they don’t know how much we put into our fireground operations.
We all get put into positions that fall out of our control, can we do stuff about it to mitigate getting into those positions? Sure, and thats why we constantly train to avoid those situations.
If you still think we are all just a complete endagerment to our citizens and the area fire departments we work with, please email me, we will do whatever we can to get you out here to train us.
Firefighter Steven Stein
Forest Park Fire
Unit 2
steven.stein@firefighterhired.com
NOT IN ANY WAY A CRITICISM! Four years, two collapses (truss floor in 2008?), two dead, one lucky. I come from a dept. which is aggressive with interior attacks. Could it be a smaller dept. such as this, with “part time” firefighters arriving well into advanced stages of fire involving trusses are being too aggressive? Hey, gotta get the roof open no doubt but how long has it been burning before initial arrival? How late into operations are the guys going to the roof?
Thankfully this jake survived on training and instinct!
@john monahan
Our first due aerial is assigned ventilation and search. We usually have 4 people on the ladder. 2 go to ventilation, whichever is needed, and 2 go to search. Around here our average on scene time for our fist due ladder is roughly 4-5 minutes.
Not great camera angles, but that house looks older, usually not build with trusses. Usually legacy lumber, 2×10 or 2×12. Can the guy from this company confirm this was a truss roof?