We found this excellent ground ladder video over on thehousewatch.com. It is of a recent apartment fire they had in Milwaukee. When first listening to this video, it almost sounded like it was an audio tape from Champ’s ground ladder class at FDIC. Anyone who has had the class, or been around the HOT training knows what we’re talking about; anyone who hasn’t should definitely make it a priority to attend. This video highlights how truly effective ground ladders can be. The video was shot by Milwaukee’s TMJ4 News.
[flv]http://www.vententersearch.com/videos/flv/milwaukee.flv[/flv]
There were a total of four grabs… A job well done goes out to the brothers in Milwaukee.
Very nice work, nothing fancy and the job was done quickly and efficiently. This is where proper staffing pays huge dividends, especially when faced with multiple victim rescues. When staffing does not allow for that, you need to prioritize your victims. Remember the ones that seem the worst off are not necessarily the worst off. Good rule of thumb to follow…fire floor, floor above, top floor, and then any remaining victims.
A couple of other thoughts. Try not to use the word “jump” when talking to a victim. You may be saying “Don’t jump”, but all the victim hears is “bla, bla, bla, JUMP”. Trust me, I saw it firsthand. Another thing to watch out for when you have multiple victims at the same window. If someone is desperate enough to throw their kid(s) down to you, rest assured that they will be coming right behind, or if one person jumps they were just first in line.
Great job to the brothers in Milwaukee!
They obviously do not have any staffing there, everyone was attempting removal from windows and were unable to put out the fire.
Quote Jon “They obviously do not have any staffing there, everyone was attempting removal from windows and were unable to put out the fire.”
It drives me nuts to read a statement like that.
First; Were you there? If not you are basing your assumptions on less than 2 minutes of video… edited video. Was it possible that crews were making interior attack? There was fire on more than one division and it looks like it was quickly spreading. I would challenge any first alarm assignment to knockdown that fire in 2 minutes, while dealing with trapped residents.
Second; Prioritization- Life Safety, Incident Stabilization, Property Conservation. The exterior crews were taking care of business, and the priority at the time was Life Safety. Who cares if the whole building burns, save lives first.
Third; We all have staffing issues, if your post was to point that out, you did so in a very wrong manner.
Great set of grabs MFD!
Great Job Folks! Makes me proud to wear the badge. Maybe “Jon” needs to “See the Forest instead of the Trees”. This is what we train for. Like the brother said, who cares if the building burns as long as we save all “savable” victims and everyone(the fire folks) goes home.
Well Drew, you obviously lack the ability to discern the difference between fire out two windows and fire out all the windows! The only way that happens is NO WATER on the fire, and that is cause the City of Milwaukee does not want to provide adequate staffing.
If you think this is what we train for, then why do we even stretch hoses? Or estimate the stretch while out doing bs runs? Oh that’s right cause putting out the fire is part of the job, something you can’t do when you dedicate all first arriving apparatus to the rescuing of civilians.
In a forum known for little arguing or armchair quarterbacking…..easy.
Remember you weren’t there. The video was edited and all videos are tunnel vision. Be easy….please.
Looks to me like the Milwaukee Brothers got four people out of a bad situation. The first two were very bad off and I’m surprised she didn’t jump.
If there’s any Milwaukee Brothers on here it’d be nice to hear some more info about this fire and their department.
People in distress are always crazy. Damn good job. Damn good.
Brotherhood above all.
Be safe.
Nice job to the Milwaukee guys. When faced with four ladder rescues and a growing fire, does anyone have enough staffing? MFD still has 5 on most ladders and 4 on the engines. The lasty time I checked, the responded to a working fire with 3 engine companies and 2 ladder companies, plus RIT and EMS. That is more than most of us. We all could use more people, but they did a great job with what they have.
Listen props to the Milwaukee guys. Thats a great job. Thats why every TRUCK company has people throw ladders. The ENGINE streches the lines and gets a knock on the fire.”Which here was may I saw “rollin” ” The TRUCK does search vent and ladders. The Monday morning QB crap really needs to stop. If MFD really has 3 Eng, 2 Tru, and Im shure prob a Rescue Co. on the 1st alram thats 12ish people for engine work and 8-10 for truck work. That is more people going to work than most people in the country so quit running your mouth. 2 min of video that is Im shure edited cannot be judged if you werent there. Give the boys props and leave it there.
Stay Safe
Keep on Truckin
See ya on Da’ Roof
Great job, MFD! I’ll echo a few of the other statements. This is exactly what we train for. I sum up every fire the same way(usually)….Nobody got hurt and everybody went home. That is ALL that matters. As far as my personal 2 cents..When you don’t have enough to do all functions, do the one’s that have the biggest impact. That’s right outta the officer’s book. And remember guys, right, wrong, or indifferent everybody’s entitled to their opinion. That is what our fore fathers meant in the Constitution before the Democrats, lawyers, and supreme court got hold of it! Take care.
Re Jon’s comment:
Unfortunately (?!) our bros in Milwaukee continue to do a great job in spite of the Chief’s manpower cuts.
It’s a win-win situation for him.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/37119924.html
Well put Truck1OVM! The bottom line is that “most” departments could use more staffing. Hell, I know mine could. But you know what? You work with what you have and if its not adequate no you should never stop fighting for more staffing. But in the meantime you train your ass off with what you got and make it work! I can tell you first hand that if your staffing sucks it just means you have to be that much tougher.
Be safe fellas!
No such thing as adequate staffing, it is a fallacy.
GREAT JOB to our Brew City Brothers!
From a teaching standpoint, and I am only looking for opinions here because what they did obviously worked and that’s all that matters.
The first grab with the ladder (Lady and Man)… Should the ladder have been to the base of the window sill instead of along side of the window? Would it have been easier for the victims that way?
My primary thought was that below the window would allow the victims to come out of the window without being up in the smoke longer. Plus if they lost a step or fell, they would have landed somewhere on the ladder where they could grab something versus ladding next to the ladder with nothing to grab onto.
Just looking for some expert opinions. I’ve already been showing this video to a few of my troops and there’s apparently a few schools of thought.
Thanks Brothers! Be Safe
Regardless of what some people would like to believe, the act of putting the fire out does not immediately make all of the other problems dissapear. There will still be smoke and heat conditions through out the rest of the floor. The smoke condition seen in the windows behind the first two victims is still going to be there for quite a few minutes, granted maybe not as thick or black in color, but definitely not gone. It will however be there long enough to effect these two if they are not removed promptly. It’s evident by the soot around the womans mouth and nose that they have already been in the smoke for a while. Panic works wonders for people fearing for their lives. I am shocked the woman didn’t jump.
Of course the video, as almost all news videos do, is only showing two operations, the two most visible from outside of the building! What’s to say the engine isn’t just outside the fire room door waiting for the inside team to finish opening the door for them. There’s nothing here showing that there is not an engine co getting ready to do their job as well. Just because we don’t see the engine parked there doesn’t mean they’re not already working. I would guess that the engine is away from the front of the building to leave room for the truck. Especially if the engine officer noticed the people at the window on arrival.
If the engine isn’t there yet, these guys are absolutely making the right decision. There is no pump on the truck in the video so they have no ability to fight the fire, so without question going for the victims is the top priority here.
“The first grab with the ladder (Lady and Man)… Should the ladder have been to the base of the window sill instead of along side of the window? Would it have been easier for the victims that way?”
I thought the same thing at first, but then wondered if having the ladder off to the side forced the lady to get on the ladder properly vs. trying to slide on facing out an potentially sliding the length of the ladder? In this case i think they did exactly the right thing for the situation. My only question was why did the first firefighter take a tool up the ladder? Possibly to vent a further window? It looked like he could expect to have to assist the lady immediately upon going up.
Great Job Brothers!
Was that an arson fire? There is fire all through that building.
Gee, I wonder if this one will become the next infamous “Indy VES” video…seems like a thousand people were at that fire too.
The T.V. Station arrived with the first arriving companies. It was an early morning fire and they began filming right away as the first two Trucks’ outside teams began throwing ground ladders. The first two Engines had a long stretch to the top floor. Milwaukee staffs its Trucks with an Officer, Driver and three Firefighters (5); some are now staffed with four; split into an inside and outside team. A “full assignment” or first alarm consists of 3 Engines, 3 Trucks, and 2 Chiefs; enough to start a line, bang some tools together, and make some grabs at the same time. As for the MFD’s departmental makeup, Milwaukee has 36 Engines (lost the 37th this year due to cuts), and 16 Trucks. Thanks for the interest (and posting) in the video. It is rare we get photos and video of the first few minutes upon companies’ arrival.
Great job guys.
“(lost the 37th this year due to cuts)” OUCH!
Thanks for the info housewatch.
An old Chief told me one time, “no matter how many trucks, stations, or shiny sh*t you have, firemen and ONLY FIREMEN are still the only thing that will put out fires.”
Brotherhood above all.
Be safe.
If I’m not mistaken, During the second ground ladder evolution (guy coming out first) it looks like there is fire in the window below him… maybe it was the lights in the apt. peeking from the blinds, but it looks like flames.
And since I wasn’t there, it looks like a shitload of fire.. many reasons (and we all know most of them) for this can be explained as… doors left open, delayed alarm, no smoke detectors, arson, open windows,common cockloft, shoddy construction… the list is long, but I’m sure the guys in the engine are doing there damnest to get water on that fire.
Great job by the MFD! If i’m not mistaken it looked like the ladder placement in the first 2 grabs was the best location due to that tree and some of the snow and other obstacles on the ground there (just a guess tho, we don’t get much snow!) They also may have thought they could roll that ladder to the sill if they had to. Either way good truck work fellas!
If you notice, the placement for the first ladder appears to be the best option.. With snow and ice covered grass, along with a tree, there was little space to put the ladder directly under the window.. Their placement was perfect for the environment they were working in.. Adapt and overcome, its what we do best.. Like I was told during a practical evaluation, no matter where you put that ladder, as soon as it gets close to the victim, they’re going to go for it..
Nice grab guys!
First of all, happy and safe New Year to all, this video confuses me (not like that is hard to do.) It appears to be a three story type two with heavy fire on which I think is the side C&D on the third division with a serious rescue problem. Then we see a grab on division three on god knows what side but by the power lines I would assume either side A or B with visible fire on division two??? Strong work by all hands on scene, very limited access by apparatus (by the limited info we have.) It would be sweet to have someone that was there giving the size up..
Great Job to the Milwaukee FD. Looks to be good ladder and team work. To the people who want to debate on whether they were right or not for making those grabs (Jon), crawl back under your rock. There is fire in the structure, there are victims that are or are possibly in danger from it. We weren’t there, we don’t know what conditions were like throughout the structure. MFD did what they were trained to do. Great job again, guys. Somebody needs to forward this to Milwaukee’s City Council…
A. I KNEW SOMEONE WOULD PICK LADDER PLACEMENT! FIRST OF ALL TAKE THE BOOK AND THROW IT THE F@#$ OUT! SECOND LOOK AT THE “TEXTBOOK” LADDER PLACEMENT ON THE SECOND PICK. THE VICTIM WAS JUMPING ON BEFORE IT WAS PLACED. SO THAT’S WHY YOU PLACE IT WHERE THEY DID ON GRAB 1.
B. WAS THIS ARSON?
C. IF YOU LOOK, THE GUY HAD THE AX ON HIS WAIST, LIKE A LOT OF GUYS DO.
D. RESCUER-“LET’S GO! COME AUHN! WHAT IS THIS PITTSBURGH?
According to the media there was $75,000 worth of damage and the residents could move back in!
Quote: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/37040909.html
“None of those assisted from the three-story apartment building at 3901 N. Humboldt Blvd. were hospitalized, but two were treated at the scene for smoke inhalation, he said. Damage to the building was estimated at $75,000 and the evacuated residents were able to return to the building after the smoky fire was extinguished.
The cause of the fire, reported at about 5:30 a.m., has not been determined, Dillard said.”
So, not only were the rescues successful but fire damage was kept to a minimum!
The video makes that hard to believe.
Once again, good job!
Here’s the structure:
(I hope this link works.)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3901+N.+Humboldt+Blvd+milwaukee&sll=37.09024,-95.712891&sspn=32.610437,56.25&ie=UTF8&ll=43.093055,-87.895582&spn=0,359.978113&z=16&g=3901+N.+Humboldt+Blvd+milwaukee&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=43.088349,-87.899931&panoid=vrLGn6GA337p4QyU3yIscg&cbp=12,70.99630844923996,,0,-8.58732239273128
Yep it works, just click it a wait a second or 2.
Well that Google link completes the picture. Fire venting from the 2/3 or B/C apartment top floor. Line going in the building guys, laddering for removal on Exp1 between front entrance steps and a tree. Occupants of that apartment (unknown if it is their apartment on fire(Exp.1) may have an open door letting smoke in. If it is not their apartment on fire, the occupants of the apartment that is on fire must have left their apartment door open as they fled making the hallway part of the fire area.
Video of fire venting from multiple windows is just the corner view of the affected apartment-these windows may all be in the same room.
All in all looks like a well executed “bread and butter” operation.
Stay safe.
If you watch the video more than once, take a good look at the womans face in grab #1. She appears to be mentally impaired. This makes a hard job even harder. My only “suggestions” is that if you are removing someone via ANY ladder that you get up close and personal with them while they descend. keep your arms surroundign them with your hands on the beams. If they start to panic you can press them right in to the ladder bed and YOU control the descent. “If” this woman or the man above her panicked and fell, they would have taken the brother right down with them.
Cold night, Ice, Snow, Fire, Tree blocking your placement, everyone got out and down safely.
Well done lads.
I love the Armchair Heroes on here that have been to 3 car fires and 5 drills, read allot of books and know how the fireground “should” go.
mentally impaired?
she took a beating in that apt…..give her an application!
this is a great example of the real deal…most of these armchair quarterback comment making people could only dream of actually pulling this of in real life
Awesome job and they got the job done.
It’s really great that so many guys can post their comments here for everyone to read and of course return comments back to start conversations, maybe criticize a bit, all with the thought of (hopefully) taking something away from this site that they can use or not use at their next fire or training session.
But it’s just plain pathetic that there are always some people that have to get on here and judge others by reading their posts and formulating a decision as to who is the “armchair heroes” vs. who the “real deal” firefighters are. Maybe it’s just that they’ve “forgotten” what brotherhood really is. Who’s judging who here?
Ya know what kills me more than an armchair quarterback? A close minded yard breather that think he knows it all because of the patch on his arm, most are too much of a knuckle dragger to even pick up a book and learn something. I am not sure which group I fall into, I guess a little from both, I am a firm believer that you take a little from the arm chair quarterback and a little from the bucket head insert some common sense and you have a solution.
The floggings will continue until moral improves
Great grab!! Wow….this video should make you wonder..when was the last time my dept trained with ground ladders? And MASTERED the skills required to effect such an effictive rescue? Also, I agree that this must have been an arson fire. There is fire all though that building.
Chris, WTF are you talking about? I never bashed them one bit about going for the grabs, although towards the end of the video you can see the 2nd rescue could probably have been sheltered in place or taken through the interior as the inside team of one crew can be seen in the adjoining apt.
Ill bet my left nut this fire started in the kitchen, 530am on a Sat morning, what else are people in a housing project doing at that time? Not waking up for work, that is for sure!
These guys did a great job at getting the people out, they definitely need more staffing, someone needs try and get a whole in that roof and vent some windows!
Maybe I’m being misunderstood here “contfire”.
In some of the posts on this subject and other subjects on this forum, the “brothers” are snadbagging the actions taken when they weren’t there. Case in point the video segment showing the Captain VES’ing a two story PD, then having to bail out head first. The man was practically hung by his nuts via the keyboard.
If you go back and read my response…..I typed “speechless” as a sarcastic response to the crucifixion occuring at the fingertips of “his” alleged brothers.
Therefore, my comment within this thread.
Re-read my post with a learnign tool added in regard to the membership not getting whacked off the portable by a panicked civilian looking for the groudn under their feet forthwith.
“brickcity”. My hope is the same in your reply.
I did enjoy reading “YardBreather”. I refer to them as fresh air firefighters. Thanks for the chuckle. Also hoping with sincerity that “patch” comment was not a poke at my neck of the woods and the ego of some that I have the misfortune of working with.
A safe evening to all.
Just an observation, brothers. I used to go to a scooter forum where there was a “real biker vs. poser” attitude. As time went on, it became so childish the moderators finally had to make such drastic changes, I stopped visiting. It started out to be a great place to share information and learn, then ended up having to be be chaparoned (sp) like a Jr High dance.
In 27 years, I have yet to respond to an incident that you couldn’t tear apart if taken out of “real time”. There was some outstanding work done by our brothers in Milwaukee. We got to see a TINY part of it.
IMHO, they did an awesome job, period.
Thanks for clearing up “yardbreather.” I was going to ask. I like that!
pfd27, gotta agree with you on that one, everyone got out safely, who cares about ladder placement and and that stuff, the main concern is that the people got rescued and everyone got out safely, i dont know about you guys, but the fire service is all about protecting life and property, in this case LIFE was saved and aside from the few fire apartments, property was saved too, so to me, these guys did an awesome job
stay safe brothers
This web site is for firefighting talk and tips..not to nit pick. This is not an online newspaper comments page where everyone has the ability to comment on the city councils approval to build three new parks and a school!!!
Jon,
I have to respectfully disagree with your “hold in place” theory of the second group of people. If you look at the window directly below them, you can see fire rolling around the drape. Unless (like I said before) it’s not fire on the second floor, but I’ve watched it twice and that looks like fire to me…
Hey Jon;
Is it possible that the fire we see in the video on the floor below is a reflection of the fire across the courtyard that the cameraperson spins to at the end?
At first I thought the same as you do.
I agree, I think it’s just a reflection in that lower window. If it’s not than I would have to start believing the arson comments.
This may rival the Indy post for number of responses! Personally, I thought it was a great job done by MFD. We used this video, and the video of Indy and others, as training tools for our station. New guys, old guys, all have differing opinions. Fact is, take what you see and learn from it. The discussion this morning revolved around the “what if”.
As an engine company Lt. (did some quality time on the truck, right Jimm?), I say great job. The discussion we had was about “What if we roll up on a 2-4 story building with people hanging out the windows? Do we stretch line or throw ladders?” Easy, LADDERS. Life safety, life safety, life safety. You can re-drywall and re-paint. The second due engine can make the attack. Those people are going to bail if you don’t do something.
Once again, great job MFD and great job Jimm for putting these interesting, thought provoking videos up for us to use and LEARN from.
Thank you LTD62A for proving a point I try to put out there every time people bitch about what is posted in reply to a subject on this and other sites. Like you said “We used this video, and the video of Indy and others, as training tools for our station. New guys, old guys, all have differing opinions. Fact is, take what you see and learn from it.†Well said and there is nothing wrong with that.That is how we learn, busting balls and getting through a carrier that quite frankly is not for the thin skinned or weak minded. I thank Jimm and the rest of his staff for a true firehouse setting on the internet, I have never seen another site quite like it.
Forgotten, we all have the guys that think they are the shit because of the colors they fly so no worries, it’s not your misfortune it just keeps us a little more humble I think at least.
And DMAN72 sorry I forget such terms as “yard breather†or “bucket head†an engine co guy are regional expressions and may not be known by all.
brickcity1306,
NO apology necessary! I love it! This site is a good medium to broaden the use of these terms. After all isn’t that the whole point of NIMS, common terminology?!
First grab, was the aerial not working?
Oh boy here we go !!! LOL
GREAT JOB PERIOD! IF YOU LOOK, JUST AFTER THE FIRST GRAB A HOSE LINE IS ENTERING THE STRUCTURE. THE FIRE BELOW THE SECOND IS A REFLECTION. AS THE FIREFIGHTER IS MAKING THE SECOND GRAB YOU CAN SEE A HOSE OR RESCUE CREW, VENTING AS THE GO ON THE LEFT UPER WINDOW.
No matter how you look at it they did an excellent job.
Was anyone here actually at this incident?
Woohoo, good job ladders…that’s what it’s all about!
Thank you to all for your replies regarding the ladder placement. I’m not a Textbook Follower by far, but I’m always interested on the different schools of thought. Here is a case where I learned a good point simply by asking! (Again on VES.com)
I have always felt that in my region Ground Ladders seem to be a lost art. However, even when arriving with our Squad Wagon we’re always throwing ladders and robbing other engines of ladders so if anything we can protect our own.
It would be interesting (IMHO) if there was a way to gather different thought practices and do a comparison on how we accomplish certain duties between the East Coast, Central, and West Coast.
If the building had sprinklers we wouldn’t have this video.
Great job. Cool heads in hot times.
Greg,
Take a look at the video again when it shows the aerial during the first grab. Power poles? Theres a reason they went with ground ladders… Not bashing you by no means because I asked the same question but soon realized what the deal was..Good Job MFD! Stay Safe Brothers
Greg,,, most of my crews can throw two ladders to the roof and two to the fire floor before that big anchor that rides on top of the rig can set up. Maybe I am just a old salty bastard but it is my opinion that the big thing on the top of the rig is a nice elevated waterway.. Work on throwing ladders not setting riggers!!!! I think I may make that a helmet sticker “Hummmmmmâ€â€¦
I may be a few days late, but;
Jon,
Have you ever heard of first due companies? mabye those guys were the first two trucks on arrival? What if companies were tied up at another fire? Mabye you should think about these kind of things before you critisize a fire department like that.
Jon has obviously never heard the following:
1. Firefighter safety
2. Rescue
3. Water Supply
4. Evacuation
5. Exposures
6. Confinement
7. Extinguishment
8. Ventilation
9. Overhaul
10. Salvage
10 step process of the fireground. They were in Rescue Mode. People were hanging out of windows. I think the brothers did an outstanding job. 4 people saved. What more could you ask for????
The local new station (WTMJ4)is located directly across the street, on Capitol Drive, from the address where the fire took place. That is why there is video so early on of this fire.
Engine 18/Truck 10 is located at 3628 N. Holton Street, which is just 3 blocks from the location of the fire.
I am am remembering correctly it was started due to using an oven for heat. It was reported that the heat was not working in this building for some time. The landlord had given them space heaters and blankets to help them stay warm.
Great video of a situation when it’s ‘for real’ and training, experience and tactical choices literally equate to lives saved or lost.
One of the first things that struck me was the look on the woman’s face that has already been mentioned. I took that to be absolute, 100% terror. To me, that was the picture of someone so overwhelmed with panic at the situation that they’ve lost all reason. This isn’t meant with any disrespect to the lady – if that’s what it was that I saw, it was a perfectly reasonable reaction for her given the situation. The reason that I bring it up is that the next thing I thought after seeing her eyes rolling around in her head was that this was obviously (and we saw it initially) a woman that would do anything to get out of the situation she was in.
This means that we need to get it right the first time. The right ladder needs to be chosen, there needs to be an adequate number of troops with the strength and skills to get it into operation in a rapid timeframe and we need to start taking control of the situation.
A thought on tip placement *not in the context of this video* – those guys got the job done quickly and decisively.
It seems like estimating tip placement in general is a difficult maneuver. I know that it has been something I’ve worked very hard at. ‘Counting the clicks’ is reliable, but requires math, which is something that my ostrich-sized brain grapples with when I’m buying a coffee, let alone going to work at a building fire.
The most reliable, though often least attainable method I’ve seen is to put a member not involved in the raise at some distance (30 feet or so, if possible) away from the raise and at a perpendicular angle, standing between the ladder and the building. This member will be able to very accurately judge the extension of the ladder vs. the height of the target and can estimate the loss in height the ladder will take as it is laid in. Problem here is that the member that would do this is probably (and most likely should be) doing something else.
From the ‘outside’ stabilization position, I’ve found that when the ladder is being thrown for rescue/entry, when the tip looks (from the outside position) like it’s even with the top of the target window, it will land within inches of the base of the window when laid in. A quick adjustment may be needed, but it should be one that’s a matter of a few inches instead of feet.
If anybody’s got better and more efficient methods, I’d love to see them.
The second segment where a gentleman’s being taken out also got my attention as fire began venting through a window on the floor below and to the right. I thought that the member assisting the civilian was doing a commendable job staying cool as he began to give directions, considering the potential for things to go south in a few seconds. I think that sounding decisive yet calm was a home run in getting this guys attention and getting him off the ladder before there were some serious problems with fire venting immediately next to the ladder.
I’m also very interested to know about the extension of the fire – it certainly did appear to be in various locations on different floors, particularly in the last segment. This brings about a whole host of other problems.
From the little bit of footage, this appeared to be a fire that showed tremendous potential to cause injury and death to any number of civilians and firefighters. It also looked like the MFD was doing a bang-up job.
Be safe.
looks like the fire in the window below (second grab) is actually a reflection from the fire on the other side of the building
I am just confused on the first grab why they didnt put the ladder under the windowsill
why not the ladder directly under the window and let her climb out herself, theres not that much room on there
I was not at this fire and it is a very short video. I am not familiar w/ this dept. staffing and I dont know what assignments were made. With that being said looking at this fire you have a center hallway MFD. Huge rescue profile with this type of structure and one that could overwhelm even the largest urban fire dept.. For every victim visible at a window we need to be thinking about all the other potential victims that didnt make it to a window. My strategy on this type of occupancy is to make an aggressive attempt at removing the problem from the people and not immediately the people from the problem. Vertical Ventilation has to occur on this fire! An aggressive attack on the fire coupled w/ aggressive, rapid vertical ventilation is priority 1. Do not get overly tunneled in on victims from windows. You may save 4 where 20 others perished. How do we do the greatest good for the majority? Am I saying forget about anyone hanging from windows with heavy smoke or fire rolling overhead? Of course not. Someone referred to laddering for those victims as accomplishing the “L” in our incident priorities. Yes, they accomplished that partially.Does anyone know if there was any loss of life on this fire? Making an attack on the fire while simultaneosly vertically venting the fire is mitigating our life safety issue and also taking care of our incident stabilization problem.We need to look at it from a global viewpoint. What do we vent for? Life and Fire. So if your Dept. only has one truck co. arriving on the first then we need to maximize the effect that piece of apparatus can have on the fireground. I work in Las Vegas and I have this exact building in my first due and I’m only going to get one truck on my first alarm. They are without a doubt going to go to the roof and cut the crap out of this fire apartment and open and control any other vert. openings i.e.penthouse/bulkhead! With todays fire service Engine Co. quite frequently end up doing truckwork be it outside or inside. I have posed this exact fire problem to members of my own dept. to see how they would handle it and lets just say it has sparked some firery “back and forth”. Thx for posting this video. These blogs can be an invaluable learning tool! Stay safe out there! CK.
Well Colin I’m going to go ahead and disagree with you.I’ve been with the MFD for over twenty years 15 of them on our busiest truck companies.We take a great deal of pride in our vert. ventilation and aggressive interior attack.I just don’t think that vert. vent. was the #1 priority in this fire.I was not working this particular fire but recall seeing it on the news and thinking it was incredible that NO ONE died in this fire.
“For every victim visible at a window we need to be thinking about all the other potential victims that didnt make it to a window.” O.k good so far
“My strategy on this type of occupancy is to make an aggressive attempt at removing the problem from the people and not immediately the people from the problem”
This to me is when you start to veer off.why not remove the people who are in imminent danger from the problem? They aren’t going to stand pat while you ventilate vertically they are going to be overcome or jump out a 3rd story window in short order.
You go on to say don’t forget about them but then state that you would commit your 1st and only truck to topside vent.
“I’m only going to get one truck on my first alarm. They are without a doubt going to go to the roof and cut the crap out of this fire apartment and open and control any other vert. openings i.e.penthouse/bulkhead! – That is just plain wrong !! You might just as well add that while you are accomplishing this people, people you are fully aware of in imminent danger will be jumping out the windows,people you climbed right past on your way to the roof.You are the one being guilty of tunnel vision by thinking that vertical vent. is an absolute must in this situation.
You mention maximizing the effectiveness of your 1 and only truck on the 1st alarm.This is a no brainer-split the crew and raise 2 ground ladders in this case 35ft to the people on the third floor.
furthermore how are you going to get your crew to the roof? I’m not 100% sure but I can check with the guys working that night, but I believe that the aerial could not be used, due to parked cars, power lines ,narrow streets and trees blocking access.So you will need to raise a 40ft or 50ft. ground ladder to the roof.Lots of fun on a skating rink in january in wisconsin with just 4 men.
As it turns out this fire was knocked down in under 10 minutes and under control in twenty mins. there were 4 injuries,3 with smoke inhalation all were treated and released that morning. This was one helluva job by the brothers and in my eyes they pulled it off with near perfection.
Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I just wanted to pay homage to to the crew that performed this excellent rescue-Ladder 10-Ladder 10 has a long distinguished history on the Milwaukee Fire Department But like so many other cities ,Milwaukee has felt the budget crunch so on DEC 27th Ladder 10 will be decommissioned permanently.This will be a trying year for all due to numerous browned out companies ,but especially the men of Ladder 10 who have lost their Truck.
MFD Roof. I appreciate and respect your insight,opinion, and time on the job. I also truly appreciate the “back and forth” created by these types of websites. I felt I needed to share a couple more thoughts regarding your departments fire video. I know nothing about and do not have to work in subfreezing temps. Las Vegas gets below freezing through the winter months in the early morning hours for maybe a month or so. Nothing that lasts or sticks. This structure is a 3 story, centerhallway, multi family dwelling. Your primary exposure is the centerhallway. It is the egress for occupants, ingress for the attack teams, and chimney for the fire. As I posted before, engine companies have to be fluent in their truckwork on my dept because we are not a truck heavy dept..I stick to my earlier strategy.2nd alarm called en route,1st due truck takes the roof,cuts the crap out of the apartment and hallway and an engine company can make the picks with a 28′.24′ if thats all you got. I wasnt understanding all your talk about 40′ and 50′ ladders? The distance from the windowsill of the third floor windows to the ground is no more than 22′ at the most. Not accounting for any elevation changes.This appears to be a pre 1933 unreiforced masonry building. Our rule for residential floor heights is 10′ from floor to floor.The 35’ladder they used was extreme overkill.BTW, the crew that threw that ladder needs some practice on throwing a ladder for victim rescue.It appeared to be pretty difficult for the victim to get onto the ladder. Dont we throw ground ladders to the window sill for picks or above ground access?. That throw was pretty ugly. Please dont get butt hurt. Just calling it like I see it. I have no problem telling my own people the same thing. Once again, I wasnt at this incident, but its obvious that the centerhall was absolutely charged with smoke and by the involvement of the fire apartment, I wouldnt be suprised if the fire had already began to take the hallway. If you could find out that would be great. Please dont say that the fire was “Self Vented” either. I hear that crap all the time. If that were the case then there wouldnt have been heavy smoke rooling out of the surrounding apartments windows. Centerhallway Multi Fam Dwelling = Topside Vent!!!! Control, confine, release heat smoke..If you could talk to the guys that made the stretch down the hallway and ask them how was the heat in the hallway, I would really appreciate it. Thx again for your insight. Stay safe and warm!
Colin, I’m always happy to talk truck work and am open to all reasonable discussion.No worries about offending me,constructive criticism is the way we learn.I’ll try to address each of your points as you have made them.
1.Center hallways as egress for occupants.-Yes, they can be unless they are untenable due to smoke or fire.In this case the occupants have decided for you.The windows are now the primary means of egress.From experience I’ll tell you that the 1st couple who are rescued are only seconds away from jumping.I have had people in similar circumstances who can actually see me raising a ladder to rescue them and jumped before I was able to get it there,even though it was just a matter of seconds.
2.Making picks with 24′ or 28′ ladders-I’ll give you a 22′ sill,but There’s no way I’m going to try to make the pick with a 24′.I want to be absolutely sure I’ll be able to make the sill and a 24′ ladder is cutting it too close.Milwaukee has no 28′ ladders and the next size is a 35′ which we normally throw with 2 people.Plus working off a 35′ is alot more stable and solid than working off a fully extended smaller ladder.Remember, better to overkill than to underkill.
3.” I wasnt understanding all your talk about 40′ and 50′ ladders?”-I was saying if you are unable to use the aerial that you will need a 40′ ground ladder to make the roof which is at minimum a 4 person raise,exacerbated by winter conditions.
4. “the crew that threw that ladder needs some practice on throwing a ladder for victim rescue.It appeared to be pretty difficult for the victim to get onto the ladder. Dont we throw ground ladders to the window sill for picks or above ground access?.”- Yes I agree we should throw to the sill when possible.”Look at the video again directly below the window there is a large planter and a large snow bank.In addition there is a tree that will impede if the ladder is raised in-line with the window.Could they have adjusted once they had the ladder lowered to the building? possibly,assuming the occupant will wait,notice when the ladder is brought next to the window she is already grabbing for it.People are unpredictable during very stressful situations,once she grabs for the ladder there is no way I’m re-positioning. Could the height be shorter ? I suppose.But under the circumstances I’m sure they did not want to come up short.Now look at the second pick @ about the 1:30 mark,no impediments and a textbook throw to the sill.
5. “Please dont say that the fire was “Self Vented†either.”- I think we can both agree with this one.I often have to remind people just because there is SOME venting, does not mean there is ADEQUATE venting.With that in mind, this fire was still knocked down within 10 minutes of arrival.Had the first truck gone to the roof it would have taken about this long to open up sufficiently ,so it wouldn’t have played much of a role in control and extinguishment anyway.
6.” Centerhallway Multi Fam Dwelling = Topside Vent!!!!”- Yes but Let me adjust your equation a little.Centerhallway Multi Fam Dwelling+people hanging out,smoke pushing,upper story windows=IMMEDIATE RESCUE!!!!!
I’ll talk to some of the guys who made the push, and find out what conditions in the hallway were like.I’m thinking probably not so great.
Colin, I love going to the roof,I live for it.I’ll look for any excuse to make the roof,but RESCUE should always take precedence in a case such as this.I don’t want my 1st due engines throwing ladders at an apartment fire.They need to focus on laying lines and making the fire, because good things happen when you put the fire out.I hope this makes sense and appreciate the discussion.
Gentlemen, Thank you for the constructive conversation that helps create an outstanding training opportunity. We don’t have to agree with each other to learn from each other. That’s what this site is all about. -Jimm-