Lt. Joe Pennino from Largo (FL) Fire Rescue sent in these pictures of something they discovered during the ever important pre-plan of their area. At first glance this door looks like it wouldn’t even slow a good outside team down one bit. Especially if they identify and visualize what is locking the door as they are working on it. As we all already know, you should always expect some sort of supplemental locking mechanisms on the rear doors of commercial occupancies. This time is no different, however, these pictures prove that sometimes it’s not so easy to determine what types of supplemental locks are present. There are no tell tale bolts visual from the outside indicating the presence of a drop bar installation. This particular bar bracket is welded to the inside of the door.
A little over a year ago we had a similar post on a drop bar with no bolts, you can find that post here. That particular door was a little different because of the absence of an exterior handle. Either way if we can keep the frustration level down when forcing the door it will quickly become obvious what the issue is and you can work around it…Identify and visualize.
36 thoughts on “Nothing To It”
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When going to the rear of a commercial building fire be sure to bring a forcible entry saw. This is an example of what you will find. Well fortified doors. You can cut the hinges or worst case make a door within a door with the saw. I personally take a maul and a halligan along with the saw. You can use the maul to break any blocked up windows to provide a vent. And be sure to give a report from the rear. Some buildings are one story in the front and two in the rear. Let the brothers know.
The owner of this door was trying to make up for cheap locks on a even cheaper door.
I have found while forcing doors with the additional security engineering in place actually make the door less sound.
Once you get past the cheap deadbolt and doorknob then comes the choices (doggy door) or fold the door at the weld (its doubtful the weld would go all the way across the door to support the bar) and expose the cross bar to cut and Blamo your in.
Certainly this would be a frustrating door (what with no exterior ‘tell tale’ bolts showing). If you made an exploritory opening you would be happy to find the wing(?) nuts which help the occupants facilitate the regular installation of this security bar*.
It appears as though the bar may not be present at all times. Question: is it put into place at the end of the work day?
If when faced with this situation, and your “traditional means” of entry are not working, as in this case when a simple pop-n-go method has run into a snag, don’t waste time rethinking what’s next. Go with the “doggie door” option. Simple, effective, and less time consuming when the first traditional attempt fails due to an unforseen obstacle is encountered.
Good find.
Here’s a question…hope it’s not an ignorant one. You make the discovery…include it in the preplan. 2 years go by and lots of faces have changed in your dept.. You get a call at this location….the info is in the preplan….how good is your dept. at sharing this info to the arriving crews prior to struggling with the door? How do you guys use your preplans? Sorry admins if the question doesn’t fit the thread.
why is it that so many people i talk to seem to be against the “doggy door”? just like FitSsikS said if traditional methods arnt working the “doggy door” would be the easiest second option to get in and take apart the drop bar and then open the door. Does anyone have a reason why they wouldn’t do or don’t like the “doggy door”? any other options?
OK. I got it! Sound the door with a tool to determine where the bar is. Then drive the fork of the halligan through the door with the ax and blow the bar off the back. Like someone said, cheap door, no outside indicators so must just be screwed to the door.
Good catch!! Definitely makes you pay attention on your pre plans.
DMAN72 – Good eyes catching that there are no outside indicators, however, it may not be just screwed to the door. It may be welded to the door in which case, it would be a bit more difficult to take care of. Infact, loot at the ends of the bar against the door, it appears it may be welded on there. I am not sure if the bolts are welded to that bar, however it would make sense it they were. Good catch tho.
Best defense is PREPLAN! PRE LAN! PREPLAN!
Lad288,
That’s a good point. I never thought of that. I actually looked again, and you’re right I think those are welds. OK, plan B-Cut the top hinge and the bottom hinge and flip it like a slab garage door.
“..and flip it like a slab garage door.”
To quote Al Borlin, “I don’t think so Tim.”
🙂
I have to agree with the doggy door (or something similar) option as well. I have seen something very similar to this on a door leading to a store room at a gas station with a convenience store in it. This “store room” is also actually the office for the manager which included the safe and daily transaction money, hence the reason for the additional security. This outside door was the only way in and out of the room. The bar system that we found was even a little more permanent. The section of the bars that the wing nuts protrude through and then tighten up against was permenantly bolted and hinged on the wall. The door would be closed, the inside bar hinged across the door so the bolts would poke the through and the wing nuts tightened down. Then from the opposite side a smaller piece would hinge over both bars and a nut and bolt would be inserted through the entire system locking it all together.
After failing to defeat the locking mechanism on the first try, continuing different methods to get through the lock is just plain tunnel vision. Utilize the saw and get through the door. In our particular situation we may have an immediate life safety situation due to the fact that there may be one or more occupants trapped behind the only door to the room. Our ability to open it quickly is truly life or death.
I know for a fact that the manager would lock himself in the room, weather he used all of the coponents of his system is unclear but he did use some of it. I used to deliver products to the location multiple times a week and could hear him fumbling around with the nuts and bolts or the regular keyed locks to open the door! I actually locked myself into the room just o get pictures of it but I have no idea what I ever did with the pictures.
I seriously think it would work. It wouldnt be ideal, but may give you enough clearance to get someone out under it. Gimme the address, Im gonna go try it! FitSsikS, you just grab the tools and ASSIST me.
Doggie door should fast become the first choice in any emergent scenario. Alarm ringing? Probably not. Confirmed fire? Yes. Why screw with all the other bullshit if you have a saw? With occupants coming up with innovative ways of securing their buildings, there are few that will survive the doggie door. At the very least the DD gives you the ability to assess the situation. Like RT158 says, cut the door.
Nevermind. I thought about this. This wouldnt work.
Option in this case:
Cut a triangle large enough to fit your arm through about 1/3 up the door. Reach in and push the bar out.
Doggie Door also does not have to be left as such. It is a starting point to getting the entire door out of our way. As a friend used to say to me, “Whatever it takes.”
RESCUEOFD.COM
Plunge cut through deadbolt and drop bar close to jamb. Should be able to cut both with 1 plunge. Door swings out so no need to worry about hinge side of drop bar. Bars appear to be hollow, should be no problem for a saw with a decent blade.
I would just donkey kick it as hard as a could. I learned that from a Harrisburg truck guy so it’s gotta work.
K-12. Or the raging donkey kick. Exactly what I was thinking. =]
18Truck,
That would work, and was my initial thought, but the whole point is that we don’t know that that bar is there. Not being nit-picky, just pointing that out.
doggie door, you wont be able to tell that there is a bar.. like the other guys said what ever it takes..work smarter not harder
double keyed dead bolt as well….gotta love those.
Keith102,
Point taken as well. But, if discovered during your VBI, you know its there. The whole idea of pre-planning!
Gotta love watching people donkey kick an outward swinging door. Even better when its a steel frame in URM.
If you kick it hard enough, the frame should come right off of the wall.
try “traditional methods”, then doggy door it. i think in hind sight i would be glad i went that route with this door.
…………..and call for assistance from 2nd or 3rd arriving trucks, as well as letting inside brothers know there is a delay in opening up the rear. Keep everyone in the loop. Another option if you did not take the FE saw is to use the Maul to break through the block wall next to the door. Reaching in afterwards to remove the bar or at least get a better understanding of what the locking mechanism.
I don’t see any of the attack methods being “wrong” here. Just other options. Maybe mods could add a section on this site for brothers to return here with examples of executing things that they learned here and applied in the field to validate ideas. I have already used a few ideas on here and broadened the minds of others with ideas posted here.
Stay Safe Brothers.
My bad 18Truck, I forgot about the pre-plan. Unfortunately, I would have probably forgotten the pre-plan just like I did here.
I forgot. What were we talking about?
Whether or not to pull electic meters.
18Truck – we are talking about Donkey Kicks.
I Donkey Punched a chick once………..
good move… (thumbs up)
“Donkey punch”! Ha Ha Ha, I almost spit my lunch on the screen. I love it.
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about how to get into a commercial steele door other than spinning the lock (which usually bugers up the threads on the lock cylinder) or shove knife on handle lock?
piggy back on my last comment I was trying to see if anybody had a technique that wouldn’t damage the door?