Engineer Jason Simms from Gwinnett County (GA) sent in this tip. He bought a small crow bar at the local home improvement store and cut it off at about 5 inches. He then welded two links of a chain to create an attachment point for personal escape rope. Jason says it works great and is quite a bit cheaper than the commercially sold products. The whole set-up was less than ten bucks. There’s nothing like a little firehouse ingenuity to save a few dollars.
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Or to kill you. Crosby, the company that makes the hook we use for our PSS system is a respected rigging company the world over. If you want to think about how you saved a few hundred bucks or so when you are in the hospital then do it. The crosby hook is forged, no welds, no seams. Its strength is far far far superior to that of a crowbar and two welded 3/16th chain links. As for the rope, anything other than Technora is really putting your life on the line. The rope unit at the FDNY did weeks of testing and found the Technora rope to be so superior that it was the choice. Technora is a material all of us have been using for years and just did not know it. Technora ia a kevlar based fiber that is in timing belts. It will not melt till well above 700 degrees, due to its kevlar composition its ability to withstand abrasive movement is amazing, and for 152 bucks at the firestore you can get 50 feet with a crosby hook threaded and attached.
Two great men died to come up with this system and its components, don’t let it be you too.
RIP Curt and John
Agreed.^
Hey great idea, the bar MAY not fail but the weld most likely will. I agree good men have died to get us some better systems. The Petzl EXO system is the one we have in my department and the one I work for to train on, I have used the RIT system but hands down the PETZL EXO system is easier to use with a gloved wet icy hand. This is my opinion. The system has the technora rope and is connected to a crosby hook and comes in a fast deploy bag. very good system for the money and training is provided by factory certified reps. Be safe brothers.
you can always bury your halligan on a 45 degree angle in the window sill to serve as an anchor in a pinch, not ideal but effective.
Rope is nice , and I carry it when on the truck but you need to take into account the height of the structure you are working in vs. time to set up your escape system. Sorta pointless in a ranch home or two story. Plus a good outside crew should be throwing ladders on all sides of the structure when working aloft.
As my LT says, keep it simple stupid 😉
good thought though
God bless our fallen brothers and thier families. I need to say that first and foremost.
You guys obviously work for a department that issues something worth having. Not all of us have that luxury. We are issued a small chunk of 7mm cord. I have improved that with a longer piece and a bent gate carabiner. This idea is great. Consider this…without the resources you guys are recieving, the chance to get out quicker is better than getting severly hurt. I like this… I wouldn’t depend on it for a tech rescue, but it is a better option than death.
Thanks for the ingenuity, brother Simms. We po’ foke appreciate the thought!
Not a bad set up there. I have a crosby hook myself. I love it. I got my hook for less than $40. I don’t have an Exo system because our gear is not set up for the Gemtor harness. I have one but it slides down when I wear it, so I just use the crosby hook and if need be my SCBA waist straps and an Esacpe 8. I would have gone with a bigger chain link, but overall not bad.
I like it brother, wish I would have thought of that before I purchased two Crosby Hooks, one for Marietta and the other for Roswell.
Also, I’m pretty sure that 3/16th chain and weld would easily hold this FA (fat a**)!
Be safe
Nice job. We are also just issued rope and a carabiner. It encourages you to have good welding skills. I wouldn’t use one that someone else made, but would have no problem using one that I made. Let’s hope it doesn’t have to be used. Stay Safe.
So how do you think Petzl and all the others came up with their ideas? Somewhere a firefighter thought up a system and they refined it, Ok so it looks a little crude but like others have said for ten bucks it is not bad and better then not having one. I am sure if this guy had a FDNY patch in the photo some of you jebbrones would buy ten of them.. Thank you Jason
The Petzl EXO was around long before we started developing our PSS, it was called the gri-gri. A member who was a rock climber saw this as an excellent piece of equipment to be adapted to the fire service.
I am sure this piece will survive a bailout, but if it is to be mass produced and marketed, it would need that all too familiar NFPA approval.
i like it. for us guys in not so fortunate houses, this is a great tool…i personally would use it a LAST RESORT. id rather break a leg than get trapped, good idea brother
GOOD JOB BROTHER ! NOTHING WRONG WITH TRYING SOMETHING THAT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY. IT’S ALL ABOUT BEING PROACTIVE IN THE JOB. MAKE SURE TO DO SOME TRAINING WITH IT FIRST AND THEN MAKE THE ADJUSTMENT AS NEEDED.
STAY SAFE !!!
If that weld fails, you shouldn’t be allowed to use a welder. I weld structural steel for a living. I gaurantee you my welds won’t fail.
No offense I like the idea and the DIY. When it comes down to it how much is your life worth?
Stay Low and and let it blow.
Nice thinking Brother. Most important thing now is to train, train, train on it.
Brickcity1306 hit it on the head…if this thing had an FDNY logo on it you critics would be tripping over yourselves to get at it! Chock one up for ingenuity…remember that-the lifeblood of financially challenged urban fire departments, and the mark of a great Jake! Is it perfect, no, but neither is jumping out of a window because your fire department didn’t buy you ropes (or took them away). My guess is the weld will hold, the rope will get you few floors closer to terra firma, and at the end of the day, we’ll all have one less funeral to go to. Better than nothing in my book, props for the initiative to at least carry something with you…there’s still, unbelievably, too many guys on our job that don’t carry anything at all. Now that’s stupid!
Man I dig it. I think one too many people have been drinking the NFPA kool-aid though. I fully respect the sacrifices that pushed the Exo into existence. Keep in mind though that necessity is the mother of all invention, and if the Exo system were affordable and readily available the half a crowbar hook makers of the world would be using their talents elsewhere. I love it and am going to copy the hell out of it! Thanks brother!
I agree with above… and they always say you get what you pay for! Our department recently completed the training on the Petzl Exo bailout system ( kudos to those guys ) for developing a simplistic and functional last resort system. Hopefully all of us can prevent bailouts by maintaining situational awareneness while operating at incidents. Stay safe!
Sgt. Milliner
Engine 2233
Louisville, KY
Nice job brother! Great low budget solution that may end up saving your A** someday.
There is nothing wrong with a little Southern Engineering.
The whole concept that because it wasn’t purchased and is not tested nor rated does not mean it won’t work and save his ass.
That is what its for, Right!
Nice Jobs Brother, I prefer webbing and the Halligan just to get to either the next level or the ground.
I like it Jason! Heck with the na-sayers. And to the guy inquiring about mass marketing this idea, do you actually think he would post it in here if that was his intention?? Good Job Brother! Clent
First- great idea. Some of the guys and I were toying with an idea very similiar with flat steel. Never gave the crow bar a thought, great ingenuity. There is a nice flat style hook that’s fairly cheap and works well for those that don’t want to spend the rediculous amount of money that some of these systems are being sold for.
Second- Brickcity1306, i couldn’t agree with you more! stick those four letters on anything and it will sell, regardless of what the item. The Petzl system is a perfect example. It’s amazing how much that system is selling and for one reason only. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bashing the FDNY. They are with out question an excellent FD and designed a system that met THEIR needs.
My concern with the EXO is how do you perform rope/hardware care on a system that can’t be taken apart? After all, we are supposed to care for our ropes/hardware weather it is in an escape system or not.
When I questioned a person from the EXO training group about this I was told that it never needs cleaning because it is kept in its pouch. Hmmmm?
I highly doubt that any human being can generate enough force to cause a piece of solid steel stock (crowbar) to fail. The steel stock of the crowbar is actually thicker than that of the Crosby hook. The small chain links are questionable only because if the person doing the welding doesn’t do a decent job there could be an issue but even that would be pretty hard to break considering welding can sometimes increse the strength of the metals.
Other than that, i like it and would use it.
I wonder how much the crow bar weighs?
I think this is some great thinking, the guys that say this isnt safe..well its a last ditch effort to exit the building so Its alot better than staying inside because obviously you are Bailing for a reason
I too like this idea! Maybe instead of the welded links which do seem to me the weakest point, the end could be flattened out and a hole punched in? Either for a snaplink or thread your rope through? I know that a blacksmith would be able to do this. But I’m up in VT and can find a blacksmith pretty easily.
I would still hang my entire company on it. If your worried about strength of weld have someone run a TIG weld down it and use a quality chain link. Just a thought.
I think I would trust it if instead of welding the chain links, dont cut the crowbar as short and bend it to make a loop at the end. Then feed the rope through and tie your prefered knot.
Chris, I was just talking to my metal guy who said the same thing, heat and put a small turn at the end and mig weld where the two meet it would be bomb proof. Still good stuff, stay safe
All right, heres the deal. Since this awsome device is so cheap to make, why dont you critics make one and subject it to a test using maybe a winch pulling another vehicle.(If you dont know how to weld, catch up with your dept. mechanic and have him do it) Your talking about loading AT MOST 400 -500 lbs on this thing (some of us are bigger than others) during an escape. I can promise you the rope used in an escape situation would either burn in half or break before you pulled the chain link off of the hook.
Stop bashing the FDNY. What they have that many other depts have is a research and development department. They test all equipment and ideas over and over again. Their equipment is proven and the testing backs it up. They also do what is best for the FDNY. But they will always extend a hand any FF and or department with a vast library of research and development. Just check out the testing they did one just one of the first EXO system. I’m all for guys coming up with their own ideas. But test it out and see if it works.
Why do I always play go between?? Hawk, you must have been arm wrestling when these posts were made(I’ll bet no one gets that), not picking on you, brother, but they aren’t bashing FDNY, they are bashing the idiots that have never had an original thought of their own. Brickcity1306, why do I always have to put out your fires? (Get the metaphor?!)HA!
Haaaa, DEMAN 72 because a true truck guy puts out fires with an axe and a can!!! I was thinking about a post after my last with a disclaimer so here it goes. In my early years I was a buff with res1cue and had the pleasure of riding with some of the finest fire fighters I have ever met, I have unfortunately been to several of their funerals sense those days. I live about forty five min outside of Manhattan and have seen a whole ton of crap marketed because it was used by FDNY far prior to the R&D unit in full effect. There are lots of people that listen to all the big names LAFD, FDNY Ect and think that because it works for them it should be gospel. I am here to tell you it does not, I have the same respect for a department that runs a well trained well equipped volunteer crew (gasp did he say the V word) just as much as a guy with a cool patch on his job shirt and a chip on his shoulder. Leave your attitude at the door and don’t even start with the “Waaaaaa you are bashing BS!!â€
I made my own SCBA out of a 2 liter coke bottle and non-rebreather o2 mask. Hey we needed to save a few bucks.
JIMM, If I were you I would remove this article ASAP. When some idiot cracks his melon by rappeling on a crow bar and dog chain they will surely say “I saw this in vententersearch.com”
I’m not crazy about this, as some of the brothers have said, there is a time and place to save a buck and this isn’t one of them. I’d rather spend the dough and have the real thing.
Our roof radio is a tin can and a rope tied to the C/P!! it doubles as a zip line back to the ground in case of a problem, stand by for the Patton number !!!!
I love seeing guys think outside the box. Firemen are some of the best out there, who have the ability to look at one tool and see different ways to use it or even ways to modify it. I think this idea is a good one and I really don’t see this set-up failing, snapping, bending, I bet it would work. This is just my opinion but I could see the hook part slipping off if not secured right. Maybe to improve the design, have the hook end at a sharper bend, and maybe go as far grind down the very end to a point so it will really grab in, more of a hook versus a claw.
I would like to have everyone’s opinion on few points though.
1. If you made this would you have to get it approved though your department to use?
2. This question is more scenario based. Let’s say you have this set up or something similar. Now let’s say you have to use (God forbid), or you just test it out in training…and it fails, rope breaks, hook slips off ect. How would your department, city, workmen’s comp, handle this if you suffered a career ending injury or lost your life. Would you and your family be taken care of the same if you would have be hurt or killed using a “approved†or “patented†device?
What do you think?
There is no disagreement that the Technora rope is ideal, additionally the crosby hook and the Petzl EXO system are great tools. I know Jason and he is a very big advocate of all of these items, in fact, he teaches RIT and FF survival and in his presentation he discusses Black Sunday and honors those that made the sacrifice on that day and changed the way we all view bail outs. His thoughts are to improve the survivability of those that really do not have the funds to buy bail out systems. I agree, this may not be the greatest bailout tool, it does beat other methods I have tried and seen over the past 20 years. Don’t bash a brother for trying. FTM PTB EGH Be Safe and remember we’re all in this thing together.
Bill, you make some very good points. The equipment should be approved by the department. Unfortunately, as we can see through case studies, most departments have the opinion that “we don’t do bailouts”. This is to prepare for the unimaginable. Just like ladder bails, NFPA is not going to approve it. In any type of training, tool tests, etc. belay lines and safety measures are essential. All training involving bailouts must have proper belay lines and experienced instructors teaching them. Currently, many departments issue an 8 mm rope, a caribiner, and a section of webbing. The bailout taught, including FDIC, is the body belay or wrap with a tool in the window. Emphasis has to be placed on the fact that these are catastrophic events that place a firefighter in a last ditch bail out or jump situation. Thanks for your input.
Bill,
I like the idea of the ground down point…might dig in a little better.
As for the questions:
1. We are fortunate in my dept. to have 75′ of kevlar webbing and a mini-8 built in to the waist strap of our MSA packs (one of the only good things about them in my opinion), but we still only have a carabiner at the end. If we wished to add something like this to the system, we’d have to get it approved for sure. If it was just for our own pockets, we could probably get away with it.
2. I think this question is somewhat of a moot point. If training, and the homemade hook/etc. fails, I would hope that the belay you’re using would save you from that career-ending injury (If we’re not smart enough to have a back-up during training, we probably shouldn’t be hanging off of ropes in the first place). As for actual emergency use, it sure beats having to jump and hope for the best. Stay safe out there and keep up the good ideas. Gotta go, I’m late for my arm wrestling match 🙂
I will keep this short and right to the point, lets be realisitic here, how many of “us” suburban firefighters really need a bail kit, tool, gee wiz toy, blah, blah, blah. Nothing more than three stories in my whole town, so guess what, I will use my hose line, or webbing, or rope, or a good leap and a prayer.
Other than that, nice job Brother!
Frank, that is a scary way to think. A three story fall can injury or kill you just as easy as a five plus fall will. “Suburban firefighters†die every year just like big city fire fighters do in some of the same ways.
Frank,
A rope and an anchor will beat a a good leap and a prayer every time. It will also beat sliding down a hose. How many times have you had 30 extra feet of hose to throw out a window and slide down?
I’m not too keen on the welded screw link on the crowbar, but if they’ve trained with it, I think they are definitely on the right track. I would like to see how a hole drilled into the end of the crowbar works. You could put your screw link through that.
I’d also like to make a quick plug for the NARS hook that CMC Rescue sells. It’s lighter than the Crosby and offers a few more anchoring options with the addition of the hole in the handle.
Oh boy. Here we go again. How much is the Crosby Hook? $80? I bet if you get a dozen or so ordered they would knock off at least 10% and throw in free shipping. Just a guess.
Innovative thinking? You betcha. I’m sure the welding skills are top notch. But wouldn’t the welding weaken the link?
The “oh it could pull a truck” mentality is dangerous. Yeah, it probably could and wouldn’t break nine out of ten times. But it still ain’t rated. If I don’t have the dough, I’ll mow a couple yards to get a little extra to buy the proper equipment.
Again, innovative thinking that should not be discouraged. But it’s still a life safety item and as such NFPA 1983 should not be ignored.
If it fails and somebody dies, the family’s attorney will come looking for the welder. I guarantee.
I think this is a great idea. But being a bit of a rope geek, i would be concerned abouth the shock load on the hook. I have no doubt that the weld could hold a one-time lower of someone out of a window. What you really need to know is can the weld hold 3 x’s the users weight to factor in a small shock load. A 3 foot drop @ 300lbs would be over 1,000 pounds of force.
I know 3′ is a long drop, but is generally the standard for estimating shock force. I’ll see if I have any ther conservative numbers elswhere.
Great idea to expand on!
You’re weld may lift a battleship. What about the robot that welded the chain? What about the cheap steel used to make the chain? I’m sure there was little quality control on those parts. Some things you can cheap up on. Some things you can’t. This is NOT one to cheap up on.
Man the lawyers have really got a hold on you guys. Sure a crosby hook is better, nobody doubts that. The brothers really did a good job with it. This brother is just trying to think outside the box and did a damn good job at it. If you like it….use it. If you don’t….don’t. Lets be grown ups here and use our filters if need be and not let the fear of litigation run us. It makes you sound like a medic trying to get out of training.
Brothers, The first couple of comments really disturbed me when reading the postings today. Although my heart does go out to my fallen brothers of the FDNY there’s no need to bash this guy. The official product is probably much better. It was tested and so on and so on. But what ever happend to good old firefighter invention. In these currrent times 150 bucks is a lot of money and if my ass is burning up in a room I know would jump out on a tampon. Yes there are alternatives some 9 mm and a beaner with a tool, hose line, or comercial devise. The point is that we get out. I say keep up the good work and lets use our heads out there. The point at the end of the day is EGH….
FTM-PTB\
With no experience with these systems, this is just an observation. It is unrealistic to think that the “store bought” tool holds up 100% of the time, everytime. That’s kind of an “It won’t fire , the safety’s on” way of thinking. Lawyers will go after the manufacturers of the crosby hook and the Petzl EXO systems just as zeolously as the home-made when a failure occurs.
That being said, I’d feel alot better if there were no welded chain (rather, looped & tacked as suggested by Brickcity1306). It wouldn’t take much to do a 3 or 4:1 test on the crowbar for that matter.
Well said squad 1. Thanks for the input, that is probably a good way to end the beating of this horse. FTB-PTB metroatlantafools
If your life is not worth 150 bucks get out of this job. You are probably the same cheap bastid that wont buy a meal when going on vacation. It is a device like an insurance policy. No one ever thinks about their policy till they need it. As for the EXO needing to be serviced, it has sealed bearings, what could you possibly do to it? That was one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard in a while.
Man I love this site! I am always amazed and learn so much from all of you. Like everything in our service, there are many ways to accomplish a task. Thanks Jason for the creativity. If my *** was in serious trouble, I wouldnt think twice about using it if it was all I had. Some good ideas from the other brothers, keep refining it.
Me again! Frank, I hope for your sake, your family’s sake, and your department’s sake you are kidding. I know everyone else already attacked you, but holy hell, brother, I supposed you don’t have car insurance either cuz’ you probably won’t be in an accident. Oddly enough no one has mentioned that the best thing is to NOT GET IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU NEED TO BAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But hey Im a 90’s kind of guy, shit happens, and if I need out, I’ll use a 400 lb. woman’s thong if it’s laying there. Remember there are no stupid ideas, only stupid people.
Jon, Thanks for the insult. I wasn’t attacking anyone or there character. Just giving my opinion. I thought thats what we did here.
Haaaaaa DMAN72 Ya know I did not like you at first, but you Fu^k*ng crack me up. A word of advice, I have never (thank god) had to use a 400 lbs woman thong as a means of egress but I have seen one in a thong trauma naked (god I shiver thinking about it, someone fetch a shot of Jack please)but I can strong lee suggest for the love of god keep your SCBA on!!!! Suffocating is a far less painful death then smelling that!!!!! And what the hell is FTB-PTB?? I am sure I know and am going to kick myself for asking but who cares I am off for three days and the jack is flowing so raise a glass lads!!!!
To all the guy’s that want to pick Jasons idea to death, SHUT UP! Thank GOD you guys weren’t around when Hugh Halligan, Captain John Kelly, Humphrey Pierce,and Fredric Seagrave were in the thinking phase of there dumbass inventions, because all their ideas to you are most likely the dumbest things ever thought of. I mean damn guys, Jason came up with a fix to his problem, I didn’t see any part of his post that says “Add Your Two Cents Here”. If you don’t like it then click out of it. If you have a question of “Hey man, has this worked for you?” or “What would you do diffrent to make it better?” or even “I know this is a last resort from possible burning to death or jumping into the unknown, but have you maybe tried this?” Maybe this is your sign as to why NASA hasn’t called you back to interview for that rocket mechanic job.
Good Job Jason! Thank you for thinking outside the box. If this idea helps one guy to thinkout all their options about survival then thats one less name in Emmitsburg that has to be cast in brass.
Fellas, Fellas, Easy now… If you like the idea great, if you don’t like the idea great. Take it for what it is, it’s simply an idea. Perhaps you think it’s a great idea, or perhaps you think it’s absolutely crazy, either way; there is no way we could all totally agree on everything.
Let’s try to keep the comments constructive and not petty bashing back and forth. VentEnterSearch.com has always been known for not having the BS keyboard ranting that can be found elsewhere on the internet. Remember, that’s why most people like coming here, possibly even you. –Jimm-
I’m sure many who have looked for bushes to land in after being chased out the window wish they had any other option available. I’d rather shake out my shorts hanging at the floor below by someone’s home-brew than hanging by a thread in the burn center. Something’s better than nothing although any type of commercial PSS is the better choice. Don’t blame guys for practical ingenuity; blame manufacturers for overpricing nylon, rope and cheap steel. Anyone ever try relying on a few lengths of 1 3/4″ with a 15/16″ tip? Oh well, at least one Brother in Gwinnett County will live to argue that one.
I can’t stop thinking about bailing out on the 450 lb. woman’s thong. Seriously, FTM PTB and other items you might see on this website are acronyms for phrases adopted by FOOLS fraternal order of leatherheads. Go to foolsinternational.com to check it out. Or you can just click on my name F007 and it will direct you to metro atlanta fools chapter website, from there you can go to the international link.
I don’t get it, but I am a little drunk LOL so I will check it out later but thank you ..
How about some more home brewing and lets find a way to put “MAN” back in the word Fireman. Great idea, I’m gonna try it out. If anyone want some BS flavored Kool-aid that NFPA and lawyers sell, let me know. My Dept. has plenty and I will send you some.
If you guys want to follow an NFPA standard, try starting with 1710! How about proper manning to help us not need these freaking bailout things. No one’s arguing the rated hooks are better, but any hook is better than many of us have right now. I’ll probably make one up this week and carry it, with no fear or litigation or it breaking. I won’t expect my dept. to authorize it, if they want input in this personal decision they can buy me the rated one. Your down to the point that your bailing out, and you’re worrying about the hook? How about the non NFPA rated window sill or whatever you’re hooking to? Does the Crosby or any other hook maintain it rating after training with it? How many times can one bailout on the same hook without causing some sort or weakening? Look at all the other great ideas on this site that we don’t bash for being non-compliant: modified halligans, hooks, using tools in manners they weren’t designed for, but we seem to pass that off as getting the job done, but we can’t see this hook as a last ditch tool that might save one of us? The reason the rated devices are so expensive is the testing process and insurance costs have to be passed of to a very small number of end-users for the company to turn a profit.
OK here is my 2 cents worth. I have never posted to one of these things before and probably won’t again, but this must be said.
Truck God Tom Brennen (may he Rest In Peace) once wrote in his artical Random Thoughts some thing to the effect of “don’t wait for your department, NFPA or OSHA to tell you which rope is safe for the fire service, get a rope and put it in your pocket, get one at the home center, the hardware store hell take a line off your boat, so what if it breaks when you’re half way down, your that much closer to the ground aren’t you?”
I for one, am sick and tired of those who qoute NFPA chapter, line and verse (most only think they know the chapter, line or verse anyway). If its not NFPA its no good. BS! The NFPA equipment committees are made up of a bunch of equipment manufacturers who want more of your money; the term “self serving” comes to mind. The point is there is alot of good equipment out there that was NFPA compliant once and now isn’t, or isn’t NFPA compliant and never will be due to some hoop that wasn’t jumped through. How many of you still utilize 1992 compliant SCBA? We do, and we test them per requirements, replace parts as needed and they are still better than any heads up computer driven SCBA now on the market. Lots more SCBA failure out there since computers got involved, but its “NFPA approved”. How many of you wear a leather hat with borks? Still the best hat going, but for years it didn’t have NFPA approval but better than any NFPA approved plastic brain bucket with 6″ face shield on the market. Plastic helmets melt and face shields melt and break, but they are “NFPA approved”.
Lots of the equipment now accepted by some approval agency, was originally developed in the firehouse and used for years without these approvals some still don’t have or need any approval: the halligan, rabbit tool, and patrol bar come to mind. Don’t tell me they are not the same as the crow bar hook Brother Simms came up with ’cause you are taught to bury your halligan in the wall and tie off to it when you need to bailout. I’m sorry but is the halligan third party tested and NFPA approved for that use? No, but you were taught that procedure to SAVE YOUR ASS when its about to get burned up. Guess I’ll stop and think about my halligan not being NFPA approved for a bailout when the room is about to light up. That will do alot of good for my life expectancy.
I don’t advocate departments going out a purchasing a bunch of crow bars, some chain links, making these things and issuing them to their members, but don’t sit high and mighty singing the praises of NFPA and OSHA when someone makes their own for their own use, and hey here’s a news flash for ya “It will probably work” and if it doesn’t he’ll be that much closer to the ground and have alot better chance of survival, with a good quality of life, better than if he stayed in that room thinking about NFPA!
All these regulatory agencies have there place and do alot of good. I spend alot of time in the NFPA Standards and Codes because I do inspections but its about time that people start realizing that NFPA is not the be all, end all for everything. I agree with safety regulations and third party testing and approvals on most things especially equipment sold commercially but the people worried about this guys own escape hook not being “NF whoever” approved is going overboard.
Good job Brother, don’t let the narrow minded put you down, and hope you never have to find out if that thing really works. Stay Safe Brother.
M. Mazzeo
Assistant Chief
Just a quicky to Chief Mazzeo’s point, we once had NFPA approved coats at a time when you were allowed to have removable liners…as long as the liners were sewed in at the collar!
For those of us that are acronym inclined: CYA & SSB
I like it…
Wow lots of comments.
Let’s say guy comes home unusually early from work…..
Now you’re trapped…somewhere where you’re not supposed to be!
Then >
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/sheetyidea.jpg
Seriously, whatever gets you home safe.
hi check out this site for bailout systems or PSS
its http://www.narsusa.com the bag is much better then the exo. note in the pic with the halligan tool the “Charleston Cleat” for bailout off roof or type 3 buildings
stay safe
I want to see the previous photo done with a series of thongs!
Two quick points:
1. Regarding rope systems, NFPA is a MANUFACTURER standard, not a user standard.
2. How do you inspect the cam portion of the Petzl EXO cam for wear? You can’t. This is the same piece that Petzl insists on you inspecting on their Gri-Gri and I’d. Nor can you replace your own cordage.
Jimm, thank you for NOT removing this. This is exactly why this webpage is here. Discuss an idea, pros and cons.
Every article in here will not work for every firefighter that reads this, but if at the VERY least, it inspires thought, debate, and future ideas.
Take this webpage for what it is, a place to discuss, learn, ask, and seek out knowledge from others.
Stay safe everyone.
~Egan
FitSsikS… NICE!
I’m pretty certain that if I came home early, and you needed to escape, I would not have a smile on my face. Thanks for making me laugh though. -Jimm-
I wasn’t sure that you’d recognize yourself!
Nyuk nyuk!
+1 for do what you gotta do to get out alive. Seeing ingenuity like this always gets my brain working.
+1 for do what you gotta do to get out alive. Seeing ingenuity like this always gets my brain working.
I just had to say that I just got my shirt. They are awesome. If you are reading this, buy a shirt.
A lot of interesting stuff flowing through this topic. A few of my own thoughts…
First, all forms of FF survival are based on creativity, be they head first ladder bails or breaking through a wall. Whatever works is better than the alternative. The focus given to rope bailout the last few years has been great, and I know we all regret the cost of bringing it to our attention. Esentially, we’re talking about a parachute sytem for the fireservice. I’m sure when the actual parachute was invented, there were many who said it would never be needed, never of any use. Hopefully ropes will one day be a standard issue like a parachute for pilots.
That said, I like your thinking! I don’t think you can argue that a manufactured version may be safER, but hey it may be a perfectly viable option. Might I suggest a cheap addition? I’m concerned about the rope’s acute bend over such a small loop in the chain. Add 6in of plastic/rubber tubing to your rope where it runs through the chain. It may help with abbrasion. As far as chain and weld strengths, I have no idea. Again, if the option is burning, go with whatever works. A few years ago before the black sunday fire, I stole an idea from and FDNY SOC firefighter who had six feet of hardware store steel cable around his waste crimpped off with carabiners on the ends. He said hey, at least it will get me a few feet out the window and it won’t melt.
As far as the exo and other systems that have variable speed desent control divices (such as the CMC Escape Artist that was pictued a few posts ago), they are GREAT because they give you hands free edge negotiation. In other words, anchor it and jump out the window. You don’t need your hands on the rope at all, and you can worry about lowering once you’re out of the oven. This is a major plus because studies have shown when you get trapped in a situation where its hit the fan, your body’s dexterity deteriorates, so you don’t want to be worrying about maintaining perfect tension on the rope, such as in the simple wrap it around your bottle, grip it and hold method. This works great in training, but I dont how with it I’ll be trying to escape a flashover. So, to have an auto locking device is a great asset.
The downside is if something in the system gets jammed, you’re left hanging there. I’ve rigged up my own system, a version of both the exo and cmc escape artist, and added a carrabiner into the mix that will allow me to escape the whole mess should something go wrong. As far as cleaning the exo, yeah its tough to do. I’m an avid climber and have used a grigri for years without a problem and have never had to clean it, and thats with muddy wet ropes moving through it at times. All gear needs to be inspected and cleaned, but I don’t think that’s a reason to discount the exo at all. Its a great system and certainly the most tested one out there.
The big picture, though, is that this bailout stuff is again based on getting out alive. Its interesting to note that we’re not the only folks interested in these systems. Since they’ve become the rage, some the military special ops teams have caught on as a possible bailout option for getting trapped in urban combat situations. While I haven’t personally seen this, I’ve heard of training evolutions where some crazy special ops guys were bailing out on VERY improvised anchors with success. For example, the halligan bar at an angle across the window? These guys rolled up a magazine, tied a rope around it, set in the window corner and it held as an anchor.
Bottom line, the research has been done and there are full systems out there that you can buy that have been well tested. NONE are perfect and no one system will fit every dept.’s needs. I don’t have a store bought system, but what I do carry is a mix of a bunch of different systems rigged to meet my requirements.
If you want to improvise your own, sure its a risk but hey the next big thing might just be what you rigged up between runs that no one thought of before. The first parachute probably started as some sheet in a garage. Whatever gets you home safe is worth carrying.
Great stuff folks, sorry to any of you who actually read this whole reply.
Dig the ingenuity. To repeat others, if you like it, try it. If you don’t, don’t. It truly is a risk to use something homemade, but, each of us should understand what our position in life is and to what are willing to risk for our necessary gains.
On another note, I also like the late Andy Fredericks phrase, “if you put the fire out, you don’t have to jump out the window.” This is coming from an Engine guy… pretty profound!
But in the case of last ditch effort, desperatime times call for desperate measures. I have been blessed to work for a dept with innovative guys who sold our chiefs on installing personal escape packs in the mid 90’s, with the expected anchor being a halligan and our harness being 1″ webbing. Things have gotten better since then. Thanks Mike. Thanks Larry.
Another thought- If it weren’t for creative thinking, I’d be writing this on a stone tablet, so… nice work bro.
And thanks for keeping the discussion-making post up. It would be a bland world if we all thought the same.
Thank you Walt, Fredericks did put it best. There are plenty of things that we should be worrying about rather than a hook!
If the questions about the chain holding are a concern, why not weld a ‘rated’ carabiner to the hook.
Welding a carabiner on to the hook will not make it a rated device. As we all know metal is only as strong as the welds holding it together. It would definatly have to be a rated steel biner. I like the cosby hook because it is forged. http://www.awdirect.com/ba-grade-70-j-hook-with-eye-attachment-8-in-n711-10/hooks/ something like that mini J-hook that is forged might be a little better. My dept has the bail-out kit built into our SCBA and all it has is a carabiner on it, I carry a crosby hook just in case I dont have a tool with me . Before u guys tear me apart, I am in an engine company but we run as a deptmartment so any member can get on any truck.
Beating a dead horse here but most crow bars are also forged. They are obviously not as high of quality alloy as a Crosby hook but forged nonetheless. Just a thought….
Great idea, which is why I visit this site. Might not use it myself, but maybe I can come up with an adaptation that suits me.
So there are departments out there that actually issue webbing and carabiners? Wow, you buys have it made! The kit I carry consists of 40′ 8mm rope, a carabiner and a rescue 8. All of which I purchased on my own. It’s carried in a bag that I carry on my waist with a leather truck belt. I cut off the cheap clasp and added another carabiner to hold it. Will it work? I hope so. But hell, anything is worth a try.
Stay safe Brothers.
My earlier post wasn’t meant to discount the EXO system as a unit, from everything I’ve seen of it it does appear to work well. However the rope in the EXO system can’t be removed from the the device or from the Crosby hook such as with the GriGri. Another down fall to the EXO is that it is only designed for use on one side of the body and in conjunction with the Gemtor FDNY spec harness, a nice sales gimmic for all companies involved.
I personally have purchased the CMC escape artist. It is basically a mini version of the 540 belay device and allows for hands free exits as Neo827 stated. I have two auto locking carabiners and 35 ft of 8mm rope and keep it in a small pouch on my hip. It works the same as the EXO system, but it can be taken apart and cleaned if needed, carabiners removed if they become damaged, and costs a lot less.
Also for anyone that is not familiar with the Petzl GriGri that has been mentioned a few times now, it is the device that the EXO system was designed from. IT IS NOT FOR PERSONAL ESCAPE USE. Although it works in a similar way, it is designed to be used with larger diameter ropes, much to large to be practical for escape rope, and it is meant to be belay device particularly to climbing activites. Don’t use the GriGri as the cheap method of building your own EXO system. It could lead to serious injury or worse.
Proper initial attack line stretching and attack, stretching secondary back up lines, the right form and timing of ventilation and good situational awareness go along way in avoiding the need for which ever system any of us choose to use, weather purchased as a system or made in the back room of the fire house.
RT158, I am not a NFPA book head and I do not drink the cool aid but do you think because you are using patented equipment in a “non approved manner†that you would be held any less liable then Jason?? That being said I like your set up and am going to check it out for myself.
I would go with something that has been through a substantial amount of testing. Not the worst idea I ever seen, but spend the money on the real deal. (the ones that are mass produced passed saftey testing).
i like it . if the world goes to shit you can get out quick . as for the weld as long as you dont put any sudden pressure on it it should hold. (such as loosing grip and then catching you self)but there aint nothing wrong with this
Scary idea…..I have the Petzl Exo and thats the best system out there….hands down! Stay safe out there.
I think the system looks pretty good. If it had come out prior to the petzl system it would be all the rage. If you have trained with it and are confident in its performance go with it. It sure beats the swiss seat and 8mm we were using years ago. Perhaps you could provide a video of your system, how its carried, how it deploys, and how the actual bail out goes. That may help the nay sayers to better understand.
Nice Touch!
Here’s a video of my setup in use. NARS hook, CMC escape artists and belt.
http://www.rescue2training.com/custom.html?id=4146
It’s pretty obvious that this was not your first rodeo with this system, Kelly. Point being that what ever system you use, you better be pretty effing good with it. A bailout is no time for OTJ training.
Kelly February 21st, 2009 8:21 am
Never said I didn’t agree, but you know us stupid people, it was meant to be sarcasim. However there is this thing called training in the fire service and if you do not have a gee wiz toy or the crap is coming down, there is nothing wrong using the things I talked. Have ever trained bailing out of three story window using a hoseline? Hanging out of a 3rd floor window wtih webbing/prusicks/rope? Have ever trained bailing out the window with your haligan buried in the drywall and a piece of rope? You do not need some expensive gadget to save your life. It comes down to training and knowing how the use everything on the fireground and most importanlty good training on fire behavior and building construction and good retention of that knowledge will allow to never put yourself in a situation. Ask yourself this how many brothers have survived and bailed out of structures for decades before all these toys hit the market?
Remember there are no stupid ideas, only stupid people.
Thanks for the compliment DMAN72. Now put away your Starwar toys your mom is calling you its bed time.
Frank,
I agree, it all comes down to training; and I’m sure that I didn’t call you stupid. I thought that maybe I misread your post the first time and completely missed your sarcasm. Well, I think I’m still missing it. The web isn’t the best medium for being able to read into somebody’s sarcasm though, so I’ll accept that.
I also agree that you do not NEED an expensive “gadget” to save your life. However I think that it is a disservice to firemen who have died before us, who could have used this stuff, to not find a better way to save ourselves.
Similarly, buckets with water put out fires, why do we need these fancy “gadget” firetrucks? It’s a pretty extreme simile, but the point is the same.
If something designed will help hold a door open, (block of wood, nail), hold a flash light for you, (rubber strap on helmet)anything that makes our job just a bit easier…I’ve always said go for it as long as it doesn’t go against safety. With that said…here we go,
The fire service has never been able to get along with itself. There has always been struggle between companies…Departments, etc. Therefore we have never been able to look after each other in a unified force.
Because of this someone else has stepped in to make sure we are “safe”….NFPA…OSHA…PESH…etc. If we had been able to look out for one another way back when, we wouldn’t have to jump through so many hoops that others REGULATE us with. We could be regulating ourselves, but we…the fire service…only have ourselves to blame.
Think of how many things we have to conform with, standard this and standards that…
Don’t get me wrong…WE need it in some areas. I’m from NY and we just had a rope standard stuffed up our..”you know what”. Great, a rope to bail out of a bad place….learn building construction and fire behavior and put the fire out..guess what…you don’t need to bail out now. I’m in a small Dept. of less then 30 members with a total operating buget of $52,000 a year, (to include aparatus payments)
Who’s buying my rope for me? 3/4 of the houses in my district are mobile homes…what do I need a rope for? the standard in NY, states we have to be protected to an area we may respond to…mutual aid districts. Now what?
Stay safe and focus on the basics.
Good idea Jason. I would use it in a heartbeat. For all the naysayers typing on this site. Think about what this site is for…to spread the wealth of knowledge and ingenuity to the brotherhood. It gives the poorest firefighter, the richest firefighter, the biggest department and the smallest department to feed off somebody’s else’s idea and either hone that to there needs or assist in giving an idea to improve it. For all of you who knock things and say “FDNY does this and they do that” My question is….if FDNY crapped in a box and put there name on it…. YOU WOULD BUY IT because your close minded and ride other people’s coat tails. Show some love, respect and pride or shut the hell up and comment on some other website. Jason, keep up the good work and ideas. Remember the ones who came before us, and NEVER forget 343!!
Ok, next time I’m in a room about to light up and I need to get out I will grab a frozen snickers bar if that’s all I’ve got. Whatever works to get me home, ALIVE. I’ll probably make one to use, even in my “suburban” area. Keep thinking like it won’t happen to you and you’ll be a statistic soon enough. I’m from a volly dept. (oh no not that word again!) and we don’t even get issued rope.
His system probably isn’t better than a commercially produced system but heck, if it’s all I can afford then that’s what I’ll get. Kudos to you for having enough sense to care about your own a**!
Plus, with the Snickers bar, you will have a tasty treat once you get to the ground!
Damn straight DMAN!! They help me stay in shape (round is a shape, isn’t it??)
I have always been a little partial to the Snickers. (And it shows!)
I gotta go with the the first guy to comment on this page. Yeah it seems cool to have something in the pocket of your gear that you made yourself, and if it’s something like a chock or tool sleave, I agree. But when it comes down to what’s between you and a drop that would kill or cripple, I’ll go with tried and tested, not home-made.
Ha here we go again.
Look man, all I’m saying is that I’d rather spend the extra bucks on a reliable system than on an improv hook I or one of the guys in my house threw together. I’m not saying it wasn’t a clever idea.
Oh this debate shall never end.
Holy s@#t, LOOK OVER THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s not funny, DMAN! I just snapped my neck!!!
You can still move your fingers to type. Id say you’re ok! Granted, I know this will probably start an argument over prematurely clearing c-spine injuries without ER or X-ray evaluation. 🙂
I cannot believe that someone who is not a physician would be so quick to dismiss a potentially life-threatening spinal injury, especially without further evaluation and x-ray in the ER. If your department ran as many calls as mine, you’d know of the serious potential for unseen injury! At the very least, you should have attempted a full neuro exam via keyboard, duh! Anyway, I have to go eat my Snickers before it melts…80 and sunny here in FL 🙂
I bet he slept in a Holiday Inn Express last nite…
CALGON, TAKE ME AWAY!!
SO as the volly FD who’s an erp let me not encourage it, but state that the essential functions seem fine… (sense of humor, typing, spelling, lets see what else…) :>
i don’t like it…..
Just a thought or two; a fellow jake on my crew had a crosby hook and I wanted to put it to the challenge-old school vs new school. I am used to, and comfortable with, using a 50′ section of 7 mm rope with a figure 8 on a bight out of a small rope bag. When I need it, and have, I put the halligan through the loop, into the corner of the window, around my airpack, hold on with one hand to the rope and the other to the bar and out I go. The challenge was timed bail out from second story wood frame window, old school 4 sec., new school 7.5 sec. (3 times back to back, same numbers).
I noticed that given the majority of our building construction, wood frame, that the extra time was spent trying to find a good purchase point for the crosby where as the halligan bites in the same way every time. Having grew up in N. Jersey and a working knowledge of the majority of building construction in NYC I am wondering if the crosby is designed to work with that specific application and not so much the wood frames we have in the south, and most other places as well. My opinion from observation, I did not feel comfortable throwing this hook into the windows that we encounter on the reg. Just look at the way most of these windows are installed, a few nails here and there. I don’t want to fall to the ground with a window to follow. I am not a rocket scientist, only a Jake that has looked a little deeper into changing something that is proven to work, and as my little experiment demonstrated takes less time. Would the brothers in NYC still be alive if they just had some rope or is the hook a necessity. R U guys in NYC taught to use the Halligan in the window or something else? I do like the idea that he had with the crowbar but I will stick with old school for now.
I have seen all of the post on here i think it is a good idea. Ok maybe some might say that the weld will not hold. Ok so i have an idea take the same setup with out the chain now heat the crow bar’s end were u cut it ” A good hot coal fire or some type of gas torch or even a wood fire will work if u cant find a black smith”
get it nice and hot flaten the end out “might take a few times in the heat to get it flat” then cool it off drill a hole big enought for a biner to fit in to it and there you go the only thing you have to worry about failing is the rope.
But all in all we are not all rich like some of the people on here we all cant afford the “REAL THING” and i dont care if you are paid or volly its some thing that will in a bad situation save your life no mater what. If you have the money to buy the real thing then do so and stop bashing the fire fighter or fire fighters who cant but had a good idea for some thing in a time when every one is short on money.
Thank you for your time.
I read this post a while back just never made a comment I just gotta say MAD PROPS to my Gwinnett Co. brother here! At least he’s using his head and time being a proactive member of the service. I give props to Gwinnett Co all together! They have it going on up there in the Atlanta Area! Great Work Jason. Keep it up
OMNIS CEDO DOMUS!!!!!!!!!!
Jason great job! A few minor changes and I could see this getting rated and marketed!
Wouldn’t trust that when I’m hanging outside of a 3 story window…….would rather pay the extra couple hundred to keep my life
“If you put the fire out you don’t have to jump out the window.”
We’re not issued,I use 10 mil quick seat harness w/beaner couple wraps n down I go 60 ft.I’d like bacon n eggs for breakfast honey,thanks