Prince George’s County (MD) had a fire in the University Park area last night. The crews were met with heavy smoke and fire upon arrival. Apparently they had some water supply issues that resulted in the fire getting ahead of them. Eight firefighters were said to have received injuries and transported but it appears the injuries were minor. But while watching the news this morning, the following picture (from MyFoxDC) of the fire was shown, which brings up a great subject.
Are we bringing pounds of aluminum or actual ladders to the scene? Ladders are only going to do us good when they are in position, not stored on the rig. The picture above is a perfect example of good laddering. At this point we are not sure if any of those ladders had to be used for rapid egress, but that’s not the point. They were in position and not stored on the rig. The picture below from an unrelated call demonstrates what could happen If ladders aren’t thrown early.
The Engine (if positioned improperly) could block the ladder compartment. But look close at that ladder compartment… All of the ladders were already in position! Ladders are nothing more than pounds of aluminum if they are not in place on the fireground. Take the time to discuss Truck and Engine placement with the rest of the crew, emphasizing the importance of throwing ladders early.
Rual companies, like mine, that dont have a ladder truck wouldnt have to worry about truck placement as much in the rear of the rig, but the side of the rig. We carry our ladders on the right-hand sides of our first and second due, (an engine and ETA.) Therefore placement of the rig has to be considered because of poles, vehicles and any obstruction one the side the ladders are stowed. Just a twist to above.
Stay safe
thats what i am talking about! that top picture is very nice to look at. you can never have too many ladders to a roof. all those ladders for one truck company is very good. that gives the truck guys many ways off. if you get in the habit of putting lots of ladders up at a single family fire, then it will be the same thing when you go to a commerial fire. as far as the rig placement. you got to be kidding me.
Dump all the ladders every time. Good stuff.
Very Nice.
I count 4 fire fighters on the roof. Three on the peak and one straddled the line going up the roof between the two windows on the right side of the picture.
Looks like all of those ladders could be used if it all goes bad.
Is it wrong that Im aroused by the first picture? I heart truck work!
I wonder if they were looking for the owner of the house and vehicle in the foreground?
And lights! Look at all the lights!
WAS THE REMOTE UP THERE?????
yea DMAN72 it is wrong that you are aroused by it! HAHAHA it is always cool to see things like this
Laddering of the building is good. However, look at the angles of the ladders. Did the firefighters just walk up them like they were ramps? I see the bushes out front but location and proper length selection should be a consideration as well.
That is one OUTSTANDING job on laddering a structure!!! My hat is off to them for a job well done. This department has shown pride in their work, and a respect for safety for their Brothers. Kudos!
PFD24 I think what they are talking about went over your head.
Typical engine company morons.
We have the same operational issues on our truck. One suggestion made is for the Ladder Company to pull a section of 5″ supply hose off of the rear of the truck (this is supply hose that is kept on the truck for engines to supply the aerial). The idea is to pull at least the length required to get the ladders out of the box, and lay that hose on the ground. This accomplished two things, it suggests that whoever parks behind us is going to be most likely to give us a supply, secondly it gives a distance marker where they need to stop to not run over the hose. This can be communicated as well “next in engine, be advised we have a 50′ section of 5” on the ground behind us for supply”… hint hint, that’s as close as you are allowed to get.
another idea is to measure a rope that is the legnth needed to easily get the ladders out and tie that to a cone and find a way to attach the rope to the rear of the truck then once on scene the driver pulls the cone out and stretches it out so the next truck should know not to block in the ladders
We can think of all sorts of ways to keep the Engine from blocking the ladders, but in very basic terms, how about this… If you’re qualified to drive the Engine or ride in the front seat, then you should know that the Engine NEVER blocks the access to the ladders… It’s really pretty basic!!!
DMAN72
For the love of all that’s Holy, put your pants back on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great pic, too. That’s why I lurk around here.
Ohhhh wait,,,, no one is complaining about climbing angles or “ I would of put a ladder here not there, what are the roof sheppard’s doing†holey CR@P LOL!!!!!!!!! This may be a first,, I wonder if they pulled the meter ????? Good job,, like was said keep throwing ladders till there are none left on the fire scene…
Actually, brickcity, someone did mention the climbing angles. I was just treating it like a kid throwing a tantrum. Ignore it and it will stop. By the looks of things, there was some kind of obstruction in the front on the building that may have left them no choice. But the assholes that “wrote the book” don’t put what to do in those cases….mainly cuz’ they don’t know.
While I’m not an expert in their operations, I have a couple of friends who volunteer at PG…they are nuts about putting ladders up! Some of it is a pride and competition thing between companies, but a lot of it is the fact that they have a tradition of good fundamental fireground operations. In PG and DC, the ladder is considered a tool just as much as a halligan or an axe, and every truckie has a responsibility to throw one…you think you have wood from the picture? You oughta see these guys arrive first, second, and third due and pop about five ladders up in a minute and a half:) Good stuff!
Laddering the building is VITAL to succesful fireground operations….and they should be commended for this….however the whole story on this fire is not as appealing….While you can learn alot from the laddering….the risk assesment,operations, and lack of water supply leave alot to be desired.
Running into a burning building no longer defines aggressive in the american fire service….knowing when NOT to run in does especially with fire loading, and building construction in our current time.
Most wagon drivers worth their weight should know when to pull past to let the Truck get good positioning and when to stop to allow removal of the ladders. One thing a Tillerman can do (if the street is wide enough,) is to kick the trailer away from the fire building as you approach. This way the angle of the trailer will usually allow you to remove ladders, even if the engine or chief parks to close.
Also look at the windows in the first picture. Nice and clean. No glass or sashes to get in the way if you need to get out in a hurry.
Robby O, I wasn’t there so I can’t comment on what happened at that fire. The picture is only a moment in time. I do know if we are going to squirt water from the outside, lets do it from outside the collapse zone and not even bother throwing ladders because no one is going to need to use them. Let’s assume all is lost and forget about trying to save life and property. I am going to stop here for the sake of the thread.
Nice Truck work, keep it up!
LOL Thank you DMAN I missed it
Holy DONKEY crap!! Nice ladder work fellas!!
All you need to do is “accidentally” put the foot of the ladder in the officer’s seat and it’s problem solved! It won’t happen again.
But really, this is an excellent job and and is a great training photo for what we should be striving for each time it’s our turn to throw the ladders.
pretty sure ladders were thrown off of engines too….awesome
I noticed no one laddered the exposure structure in the fore ground. Actually this picture is really as textbook as it gets. Multiple ladders thrown and properly placed, a protection line to the roof, proper staffing levels, even a larger diamiter back up line in the front yard… was this staged? Do departments really operate like this?
No this was not staged. The ladder placement is exactly what is expected on a PG fie ground. as was eluded to peviously there were other issues on this fire ground. Which explains the large commitment of resources available in the front yard due to this being an extra alarm fire. Laddering is vital to the safety of all personnel on the fire ground. Yes ladders are thrown from the engine co. It is the wagon drivers job to throw his ladders once his pump and line/s are set. This ladder may be the only means of egress for his crew if things go bad while the rest of the assignment arrives/sets up.
This picture is only a snap shot of a complex incident, but serves as a great refresher of basic skills.
FTM-PTB.
if the wagon driver is off throwing ladders, then who is watching his hose lines? that minute or so that he is gone throwing ladders, someone could have parked on the supply line or a fire fighting line could have broken. i am not saying it is bad for these guys to do other taskes but they are the one responsible for the safety of the guys inside. if they want to throw ladders they should have stay the rank of firefighter.
The theory is great. the practicallity is not. Who’s doing all this throwing? My truck has 186 ft of grnd ladders. what’s not being done while ladders are taken off the truck. We ride with a 5 man truck with pre-assignements. the OV and roof throw a ladder on C side the driver has side A with ground or the TL. FAST co. or 2nd due truck gets the rest. If your concerned about the ground ladders being blocked, maybe the chauffer should watch his/her rig.
Great idea. just dont see how it would be done realistically.
Laddering any place whether a 1 story SFD, 3 MOT, or a 6 story Hi-rise, needs to be completed in a quick manner, for rescue, VES’n. There are other pictures from the beginning of this fire that showed I believe the men from Truck 34 that went to the second floor and VES through the middle window on the second floor. PG does an outstanding job, getting ladders thrown, and getting things vented quickly. There is nothing wrong with throwing every ladder in your ladder bed and the other truck bed. Thats TRUCK WORK
no one is saying not to throw every ladder. but who throws them is the problem. what is the guy who is making sure we have water inside, doing throwing ladders.
Let me clarify brother’s. Our wagon driver quickly throws the ladder off his piece for the protection of his crew. The truck cos. throw the balance of those used. Time away from the panel is limited.
I can add to that….we ride with 3 on each rig…(officer, driver, firefighter)…Our engine drivers always through the ladder off the engine but like with anything else they “triage” the situation and act accordingly….If we arrive with a special service then the ladder gets put to the back of the list….however if we are making entry to a 2nd floor fire and no one else is there it only makes sense for the driver to throw the ladder to give the crew an escape route if things go wrong. Also our drivers have made several rescues off of balconies and 2nd floor windows by themsleves while the engien crew makes the stretch to the fire.
In addition all of our apparatus drivers dress out in full PPE (ladder driver even adds SCBA)…alot of them put on there bunker pants and then drive to the call then finish when they get there. We plan for our drivers operating in the IDLH or near it becuase we flat out need them to in order to accomplish critical functions. Is it ideal? no but when its all you got then you have to plan for it.
Why is everyone getting so excited about portable ladders getting put up. “That is one OUTSTANDING job on laddering a structure!!!” we dont even know if they laddered the rear or sides at all. Those ladders were put up to windows that had fire blowing out of them and would be no use to anyone until the fire was knocked down and the ladders towards the 2 side in the front would be very difficult for anyone to use coming out of those windows. Hyattsville website shows video of the fire and they did a really nice job but you cant get into the mindset ofdoing things just for the sake of doing things. The guys on the roof may have been more effective inside pulling ceilings and exposing fire in the rooms that were already knocked down rather then breaking their a@# putting small holes in the roof. I wasnt there and can only voice my opinion on the video but it seems they did do a nice job overall. stay safe
Joe,
Well, I can’t say I totally agree with you, but you make a great point. One one hand, it is pretty useless to just do something for the sake of doing it. But on the other hand, firemen are idiots. If you don’t get used to doing something every time, it will be done less and less until it isn’t done once and it is needed. As far as the video, yeah, Im not sure what the hell a couple of the guys on the roof were trying to accomplish?? Secondly, if they evacuated twice, probably shouldnt be inside pulling ceilings. Third what the f@#k was with the drama queen at the beginning? Look to me by the ridiculous condition of his lid, that he was somewhere he shouldnt have been. Anyone who hasnt seen the video,it’s a must see. That being said go ahead and MF me now guys. I can take it…..
if you shouldnt be inside the only worse place to be is on the roof. looks like there were guys in the building on the second floor while the guys were on the roof (not sure). Sometimes things go bad in a hurry. Imsure he didnt plan on getting cooked in there but the drama was a bit much.
FYI the ladder to the left of the house was the egress ladder for the member who was burned. As far as the ladder’s good job to Truck one. They laddered all four sides. As far as you ones complaining about the angles call company 9 and ask if they cared about the climbing angle when they were getting roasted. I agree with you angle is good (On cement and asphalt) but on soil when the foot of the ladder is implanted into the ground I could give two sh**s less. But once again Good Job to the two members of truck 1 who threw the ladders.
DMAN72 what is the link to the video. Have not been able to find it.
Noticed no one commented about the hand line being on the roof. Usually the truckies go off on hand lines being on the roof.
The handline is from the engine it was ran into the middle window. For the second floor, why it wasn’t ran from the inside not sure.
http://statter911.com/2009/12/07/eight-firefighers-hurt-at-prince-georges-county-maryland-house-fire/
Thanks DMAN
LOL ok ,,so I swore I was not going to say anything or stir the pot but jeeezzzzzz nice ladder job but was anyone going to put out the fire? I have never seen so many yard breathers in one space EVER, what was it the yard breather meeting night or a convention?? I thought it was a drill gone wild the only person with a since of urgency was the kid running out throwing his stuff off,, but at least he went in..
OK…only a picture to look at here, but a few general thoughts.
1) If the owners are out,life safety for the guys is #1. I am not putting guys on a roof in my area (lightweight construction) period when only the structure is left to save! We can vent. and fight the fire many ways other than going to the roof.
2) If we can not be in the structure, we never go on it!
3) No firefigter is worth the structure PERIOD. Even seriously hurting a firefighter is a shame on a defensive fire.
4) My opinion, roof ventilation is an urban, early 1900’s tactic that worked great then (still does on the 1900’s structures). The big city by me is full of structures that you can stand on while the room below is on fire. All around the city is one million homes of lightweight construction. THE ROOFS WILL NOT HOLD UP UNDER FIRE. My fear is the guys fighting the majority of fires these days are urban/city guys doing a great job on sturdy roofs, but the rest are tring to do the same on a very different roof.
5) The safety of our guys is #1….no macho chest beating should allow guys to complete tasks that will kill them.
In many ways Capt I agree with you, but there has to be a line in the risk a little to save a little category.
So do we now write off buildings and all the owners’ memories and prized possessions because the risk is low to moderate??
Do we make a quick push to see if fire conditions worsen or improve knowing that in that time conditions could rapidly deteriorate causing injury and or death to the crews over property conservation? It is a fine line we walk and the answer is not a easy one if there is an answer at all, If you get a clear cut answer that everyone can agree with let me know LOL..
Oh and happy friggan holidays everyone
Thanks for the New Jersey Christmas card there, brickcity.
Ray McCormack for President in 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Capt./IL— I believe you are mistaken on the 2nd point you make-Not in the direct reference(if no one is in, then we shouldn’t be on…I agree), but in the inference that there are no crews operating inside the structure.There are crews operating in the structure.I also don’t see this as a defensive fire,but as a stubborn attic fire with some difficult access which kind of makes your 3rd point moot.Your point 4 rings true, but I don’t think you can totally discount roof ventilation just because you have new construction.What you need to do is make the constraints under which roof operations are conducted,that much stricter.i.e operating off of roof ladders at all times, minimizing the time you spend on the roof…etc. Unfortunately in this case they sent useless 1 and 2 up to the roof to go sit on the ridge and accomplish nothing.A well drilled crew could open that roof and be off in a matter of minutes with very minimal risk.I think in this case it would have alleviated much of the problems in locating, containing and extinguishing the fire.I agree with your point 5.
MFD Roof, that was actually a well involved fire before crews arrived, it went defensive shortly after arrival apparently. The roof guys did complete their job. Good point though.
Did you guys read the comments on that STAter link??? Jezzzz and I thought we were ruff LOL. Ok so here is a silly question, does anyone know how the fire fighters got injured IE what they were doing and where?? Maybe just maybe something can be learned. It sounds by the comments that there is a problem in that area LOL who guessed..
almsfan,from watching the video and checking out the pgfd website,this is my take-Upon arrival units found a fully involved garage fire that had extended into the residence.They made an interior push but had supply problems forcing them to pull out and go defensive.When a supply was established they went interior again and at some point were forced out again.(It says on statter there were 2 evacs one due to supply and one for accountability and regrouping).When they had a plan together they extinguished the fire on the first floor and began to make a push on the 2nd floor/attic.This is about where the video begins.I wasn’t there so I would be very hesitant about criticizing there fortitude or tactics,But I do see 2 guys on the ridge apparently trying to open the roof to little effect with poorly chosen tools and even less desirable tactics.To them I won’t be so kind-I don’t see U1 and U2 getting anything done and worse it appears a well placed hole would have attenuated some of the conditions interior crews were facing thus lessening the beating they were taking.
MFD Roof, perhaps I was looking at the wrong incident..I looked at the College Park website from that incident, I have not looked at the video yet, I’ll take your word for it though.
When is the last time a FF has fell through the roof on a job(light weight const.)and was injured or killed?
So i figured i would clarify for some people because it seems that there is some confusion……so here we go….. first arriving units went on scene with heavy fire showing. first engine pulled two lines but the second due had trouble making the water supply due to lack of knowledge of the first due engine’s LDH, 2nd due connected a 2 1/2 inch line off a side port of the hydrant and connected it to the 4 inch. The 3rd due engine ran another line to the front door. When the first due was on the radio saying they had no water the initial evac tones went out. Then on the radio coms you heard the 3rd due engine say they had water. So interior attack was started with the 3rd dues line. The first floor had been knocked and evac tones where hit again for a regroup due to the rapid deteriorating conditions on the 2nd floor. Now MFD roof it was a first floor fire that spread to the garage and second floor due to balloon frame construction. Now after the second evac tones an engine went to the second floor and went interior and then another crew went to the garage and got it from the outside due to access problems from the interior, So when the video you saw the conditions in the beginning where the reasoning for second evac tones. There was never any defensive attacks unless you count the garage.
Now as far as the ladders. They played a huge part in this fire. Two ladders where used for injured members egress. And also for the engine crew to get the second floor knocked due to the conditions of the stairs.
Hope this post helps.
Thanks for weighing in Captain,I was hoping that someone who was actually there would fill us in on the details.I notice you mention balloon frame construction,so i’m assuming this was old stick type construction rather than new lightweight construction.or possibly a combination of both due to renovation or updating? Also curious as to what the 2 guys posing as truckmen were actually doing on the roof.
It was an older building so i am going with more stick type i don’t think any lightweight. And as far as the 2 guys they where doing exactly that posing. They spent most the fire on the ridge where they are pictured in the video and accomplished nothing. I am all for some axe work on a roof and running the ridge but you have to actually know what your doing. After you get that roof open still more tasks to be done no need to be useless so you can pose for pictures.
Capt,, no one can answer the question how were the members hurt what were they doing and what type in injuries did they sustain,, I am assuming they were B/S scrapes or minor burns..I am not going to tare these guys apart, I think it is obvious things went south just hope everyone is ok and recovering..
Learning from these posts (I never/ever stop learning!), but CaptGFD stated “first arriving units went on scene with heavy fire showing”. What was the life safety size up? I expect every Officer to confirm (when possible) this VERY important fact. I realize this may have been done, but it should always be stated during these posts. I find way too often we hurt guys in structures with confirmed no life safety issues. WE make the life safety issue by going in. Last year a Capt. lost his life in a firefight knowing it was all clear. The owner was outside with his wife…..nobody else lived with them. My point, I believe in two aggressive attacks, one with life safety unknown and the other with. If I know the home is clear, we aggressively fight the fire, and risk very little. If unknown, we aggressively risk much more.
Lastly, and more direct to the roof operations in the video, opening up the roof did what that was not being done by horizontal means. Go ahead and attack my post, but please someone post that going to the roof (like the two guys on the video) using tactics (between the hole he was attempting to make and the roof edge!!) is an accident waiting to happen. This happens more often than not on departments who have very few fires and even less roof operations. Operating on the roof in question with everything considered would classify as an extremely high hazard…..we take it way to lightly with our inexperienced guys. The engine had trouble getting water to the nozzle, what makes us think the guys sent to the roof will be more experienced/safe?
Capt/IL I hope you didn’t take my comments as an attack,I was only trying to address some of the concerns you had with the operations at this incident, with my own perspective.No offense intended and apologize for any confusion.Here is my take on the vertical vent,I think it has been established that the 2 guys on the roof were useless and shouldn’t have been up there without a clear purpose.The purpose in this case should have been to create an effective roof opening,with effective being the operative word here (both in location,size and ameliorating fire conditions).Remember just because you have flames shooting from a window does not mean you have adequate venting,it just means you have SOME venting.In the video I see SOME venting occurring,not adequate venting.This is especially true in an unfinished attic where the entire surface area will be directly or auto exposed to heat at the same time, thus releasing much more flammable gases into the space, than can be adequately vented by a few small or even large windows.This will cause a back-up of these gases which are now superheated and in turn cause even more gases to be released.A large window located in an ideal place is still at least several feet from the peak, which will exacerbate both the removal and back-up of gases.The best chance at creating a viable firefighting environment and minimizing horizontal fire spread is therefore to make a large hole at the highest possible point above the fire.Or as one of my old chiefs would say,Just Open The F**k**g Roof! Which will release these products of combustion in a much more efficient manner.In reference to inexperience I’d agree that pitched roof(peaked roof for those out East) ventilation is an advanced evolution which should only be attempted by those who have trained extensively in it’s implementation.
a lot of it also is the attitude of the jurisdiction. that was my first due for 3 and a half years while I went to college, and PGFD is a very, very aggressive department. Seeing the entire building laddered is a staple of the fireground. In that area, there’s 5 trucks, right on top of each other given they’re all in service. There’s no shortage of truck crews to throw ladders. Also, with the building construction in that area, it’s pretty typical to see a crew go to the roof. Truck company has got a job to do, they’re gonna do it. Capt/IL, I’m not trying to attack or criticize your post, crew safety is always of the highest concern. Three things while I was running down there that stopped a truck crew from taking the roof were fire self vented, sagging/spongy roof, and another truck company beating us to the roof. Seeing 4 guys on the roof is pretty typical too. That’s probably only half of the truck crew. Our truck carried 8, which typically split up between vent and search. Talking to people who were there, the fire didn’t self vent through the roof and the roof was sound enough to carry out operations.
Cool pic!! no is it not built yet or are those windows so perfectly smashed out? And it’s a night call, but looks like about noon, great light set-up. Oh and the pump on wheels can move just a hair…you think??
Nice to see, ladders the must under used tool in the fire service. As far as the placement of the engine behind the truck, the picture speaks for itself…sort of likes cop cars on the fire ground!
Another easy method that I have found very useful is in the case where the truck company is in front of the engine. As you approach have the engine driver stop when he can still see the rear tires of the truck company. Once you get closer than that you start to become to close to getting ground ladders off the truck.