[flv]http://www.vententersearch.com/videos/flv/portlandroof.flv[/flv]
Gotta love this. This is an Associated Press video from Portland (OR.) Check out how quick conditions improve, when it’s coming out like that it’s no longer beating up the crews inside. Unfortunately the video starts a little later than we would have liked to have shown, but you get the point. It appears that they are just finishing punching through the ceiling below as the video starts. While we understand that many departments do not support vertical ventilation, it’s hard not to agree with its effectiveness (that is not an invitation to argue it here either.) Some people get startled when it lights off like that, remember, that’s what’s supposed to happen. This allows the crews inside to press-on to the seat of the fire and take care of business. A vent like this DRAMATICALLY IMPROVES the conditions on the inside. Get the vent and get off the roof, job well done.
55 thoughts on “Roof Ops”
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It was all good til the hose line came out. Hopefully, they weren’t going to take that to the roof…
that will sure give some relief to the inside crews. what kind of building was this?
yea the hose line came out, it was put out by some guy with no PPEs on. whats up with that. the hole did its job but they could have kept making it bigger. that was a decent size building and it only had that little hole. it was a good start. i hear those crazy weat coast departments are all into that roof cutting operations.
pfd24… this was an occupied elementary school in Portland, OR. I believe the news reported about 400 kids in the school at the time the fire broke out. This is great smoke reading video. http://www.thebravestonline.com has more news footage on this fire.
It would have been nice to see some thick white steam come out of that hole shortly after the red stuff came out. I’d like to see the rest of the video, I couldn’t find it on the link. Good thing the kids got out.
Nice to see a vent hole doing it’s job and IMO the point of this subject is not debatable.
However if you want to to address this structure’s layout and the call itself check out the building:
http://www.bing.com/maps/Default.aspx?v=2&cp=rkf1n74sj74z&scene=5578859&lvl=2&sty=b
Here’s a great link with photos and video:
http://www.kptv.com/news/21575372/detail.html#
I think the hole was the right size. It looks like they got pushed of the roof by the high heat and smoke condition. They had like a 4×8 hole and another one going you can hear the saw cutting again at the end.
thanks sixtruck. that must have been one hell of a day at school for the kiddies that day!
hmmmf…I liked the RV fire better, nothing to blast these guys about (except for the guy w/out ppe).
now now we are not here to “blast” anyone. we are here to learn from other people complete and utter screw ups.
After the vent hole was cut and oepend up, they should have fired up the leaf blower. I hear that is a good way to vent a building.
Enough with the “screw-up” comments fella, that guy with the leaf blower was in full PPE!
Great job guys! The hole was plenty big and the video didn’t run long enough to see the total affect. No, we don’t always need vertical ventilation but when you do, that’s the way it should be. As far as truckie4ever’s comment, he/she should probably consider changing their “handle” because a “truckie” would be proud to have cut a hole like that with those results. Oh, and when the red stuff comes out of the hole thats what is suppose to happen and its time to get off the roof, not try to make the hole bigger. Awesome job again guys!! Stay Safe!!
You don’t see steam because of the numerous layers of ceiling that crews had extreme difficulty removing. They got off the roof because; as you can tell the fire was past them. They moved further down and continued the trench cuts. What you don’t see is the C-D side with 2 other truck crews cutting trenches. This was a great fire. We are all perfect sitting in a chair watching a video. Please do use others oversites to protect yourself. We learn from every fire and for that we all become better. Happy Thanksgiving BE SAFE
For a more complete view of the fire and the structure please check out the links I posted.
Oh alriiight…..I get a dollar every time they’re ‘clicked’. 😉
That guy wasn’t wearing PPE cause he was the guy driving! He needs to get water and maintain the supply. Not ditch the rig.
I viewed the other videos, & I think they did a nice job. Proof positive that sound basic tactics will ensure a successful outcome. Nice work.
Nice work guys. Good work to the driver laying out the lines for the guys as well. He was working just as hard as the other members.
That was better than sex! Or maybe Im just doing it wrong. Anyway, I am the most anti-go-to-the-roof-guy on the planet, because most of the time it’s done for no f@#king reason at all, but this was awesome. That is exactly when and why to cut the roof. P.S. Was that a donkey cut?
This is another video on youtube. It starts alot earlier in the fire. There is also a second video from the same user. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPqFvgXDCKk
Now that how we roll!!! NICE JOB!
That is a great example of LIFE_SAVING ventilation… for both occupants and firefighters alike Very turbulant smoke conditions that most definitely would indicate and preceed a flashover. Great job brothers!
yes truckie4ever we on the west coast are very pro roof ops. but maybe thats just my department, however that was a good example of the proper time to go to the roof and a good hole. im a lettle jealous…….good job to our brothers and sisters.
Great work on the roof. It was evident that this fire was under some serious pressure and venting it is exactly the way to give it a direction other than on top of occupants (in this case, the troops).
You are right, there are plenty of people who see that volume of fire coming out of a vent hole and lose their cool, but they have to understand, that’s the desired effect. Get a line on the remote end inside this attic to support the operation below and prevent further extension and call it a day.
You gotta love Monday Morning Quarterbacks. Some people watch 30 seconds of a video covering a very small part of the operation and think they know exactly how the fire should have been fought. There is a difference between a constructive critique and ignorant babble. Many of the comments I have seen on this fire fit in the ignorant babble category.
Randy, I must have missed something. What the f@#k are you talking about?
NOT trying to monday morning quarterback at all, just a few questions. Is it SOP in Portland to commit the whole truck crew to one task. As an east coast fireman im much more used to seeing the truckies scatter when the air brakes hit, then all of them going at the tast at once. In my department that would have been a one man operation, two at most. Are the school windows lexan or some other material that would have prevented horizontal vent. While the roof op is going on a few easy hits with a hook may have give the guys on the inside a bit of a break more quickly. I do see the other crews operating on the roof in the other videos linked and they all seem to be doing a great job. Im just used to seeing the truck splitting up and going to perform multiple tasks simultaneously. Just my 2 cents and a few questions. Love seeing that roof pop.
irrelevent..depends on the situation..most fires that require vert. ventilation will get a 2 man outside team usually the driver and tillerman. the inside guy and officer will take the inside and search. If the truck is given the roof by command prior to arrival they will all most likely go aloft as a 4 man crew unless a search hasn’t been performed.
The unfortunate part about the roof operation was already stated. The fire had already gotten past their position before the cut was complete.That is hard to gauge if you dont know what is going on inside.The only indicators you have from outside are the smoke conditions. These guys did one hell of a job making the cut to alleviate conditions for the guys inside and as already mentioned, the hole did what it was supposed to do.Good job!
I will just add to the rest of the comments of what a great job these guys did here. I didn’t get past the first minute of one of the you tube videos and was highly impressed. The truck crew is perfectly calm considering the size of the fire in front of them, no running, starting the saws on the ground, good ground ladder selection,and on and on and on. If these videos don’t show the benefits of practicing the fundementals over and over until they are second nature then I don’t know which ones will.
One question though for the Portland brothers ( I’m assuming there are some on this site). It appears that the main aerial was positioned for master stream purposes as soon as it came out of the bed. Was this the intent from the start? Why not as the primary means of access or secondary means of egress for the roof crew? I’m NOT monday morning quarter backing this fire at all, just wondering. My department typically uses the main for access and ground ladders for secondary egress, then reposition the main as necessary. Just a question, again great job!
some of you guys need to go back to rookie school. when did we start digging “trenches” in the roof? a trench is something that is in the ground. as for some other crap that people talk, roof ops are very important to fire ground ops. if you have ever been to a good going fire and are inside on the nozzle, you know when that truck opens that roof. it makes that inside fire room a lot better to be in. yea these guys cut a hole and got some fire out of it, but how big was the room the fire was in? if its a big room then a big hole is needed to do its job. i dont know, i have only been on the truck for the last 15 years, on a not so big department, but i think i know a little something about truck company ops. maybe some of you west coast cowboys can tell me how its done.
Looks like a good solid vent to me-You can see the change in conditions and momentum of the fire when the hole is pulled,I imagine it was even more dramatic for the guys operating inside.Some have sited the location as being flawed,but I wholeheartedly disagree,The initial hole appears to be pretty close to the seat of the fire, which is where you want it at this point-In my experience you only” trench it” if you are using it solely to stop the spread of fire.This hole is not a “trench cut” it is a ventilation hole being used to alleviate untenable conditions for the crews operating below.In addition,sometimes a vent hole will have a mitigating effect on the momentum of the fire much like that of a trench cut.The super heated gas is simply looking for the path of least resistance and when you provide that for it vis a vis a hole, it will gladly take that, even if it has to travel back to the hole to get there.This means that the seat of the fire generating the superheated air will no longer be able to “feed” the fire front because it is now mostly cutoff.
“sweet roof job”
ok who is “truckie forever and were are you from? im in ny one hr north of nyc. we up here are very pro roof opps and vertical vent even with the danger. it should be get on cut get off. not stay and extend your hole! you have that much smoke and fire commen up your job is done 4×4 hole or 6×6 what ever its doing its job. as far as a “trench cut” 15 years OTJ and youve never heard this expression. a cut that goes from peak to eve to prevent fire spread beyond it! hello FF 101. wow! anyway enough bashing. great agressive firemanship and a great 4×6 cut. well done. thank god for most of the smart firemen who did post on this and know what the hell there talken about! stay safe brothers.
o just had to do it… Esentials of firefighting fourth edition… you know the main book used by IFSTA…page 361 (TRENCH OR STRIP VENTILATION) LOL even has a little picture for ya! any other questions pick one up and read it. then get back to us! and cutts are a minimum of a two man opperation however you dont want to many on the roof either.
hey Eric you must be some two year fireman if you had time to look that up in your book. thats all you know a bet, what you have read in a book. but thats cool. i am not saying that roof ops are out but you have to cut a hole big enough to do the job. just cuz you get one small ass hole in does not mean the job is done. who knows how many rooms were going or how big the room was. that is all i am saying. i know you guys from NY are big bad ass firemen. so thanks may be i will read this IFSTA book the next time i am on the pot
“Small ass hole” That looks like a pretty decent size hole to me. If I had to guess, judging by the amount of fire that comes out and the smoke condition visible from the other side of the roof, these guys might have made the decision, or been ordered for that matter, to get off rather than finish the cut. That is a heavy fire condition under them. “Trenches are in the ground”? Please tell me that after 15 years you know what these types of cuts are, even if you call it something different. The opening is meant to let all the bad stuff up and out of the building, away from victims and firefighters, but also to “direct the fire” where we would like it to go, just as MFD said, make the fire follow the past of least resistance. If this was a trench or strip cut it would have been placed further to the left, even far enough to be out of the picture. Trench cuts are a DEFENSIVE measure even though crews are working aggresively on a roof. This fire does not appear to be at this stage yet. The more fire venting out of the hole is that much less fire spreading somewhere else, regardless of what stage the fire is in.
lol 6 years OTJ. Not 2, not 15, and i read that book at least once a week among others. there is no way ill never know everything there is to know about firefighting and the 4th eddition is old now but everytime i read it i get something out of it. im forever trying to learn and perfect my “craft” as a firefighter from new york, to florida, kansas to cali, we all do things diffrent we all can take from eachother and learn… 15 years! ok well a 6 year vet and a list of other firefighters just taught you something! your welcome… again be safe come home at the end of your tour.
wow are we not all on the same team here? just because someone like truckie4life has a diffence in operation, he should not be knocked down for it. like the old saying goes,”there is many ways to skin a cat” we all do things just a little different. i guess some people have two trains a thought. the older generation of firemen are more of a hands on, where as the younger generation is all about reading. i know there is not as many fires these days, but books can only teach you so much. so what ever it takes to make a safe operation go for it. but keep doing what you are doing truckie4life.
I don’t know about all of you but I’m from a volunteer Dept. in Northampton County PA. Nazareth Vigilance Hose Co No 1 to be exact. Out here in PA we are very big on vertical ventilation if the conditions exist. But I an reading a lot of you are saying about the trench cut not working out because of the fire moving past them. If that fire is moving at a fast pace horizontally and you trench it even if it has passed your trench you are going to at least slow the fires path. Remember with all types of ventilation you control the path of your fire. If all the vent holes are between the seat of the fire and the header you will likely slow or stop the fires progression because you will changes its source of oxygen. You can very easily make a fire moving horizontally become a vertically moving fire. In my esperience a fire moving vertically is a hell of a lot easier to fight. Therefore reinforcing what RT158 says. It is basic fire suppression and ventilation. Here in PA that is taught in our essentials of firefighting modules. Ventilation and suppression work hand in hand. Not a hard concept to grasp. If juniors and probies can understand it then all of us seasoned firefighters should kick our self in the ass for anyone that does not understand it. Then maybe send them through Modules 1-4 of the PA state fire school.
Thank you, fireman888. Jesus guys, take a break.
why dont we just keep it simple. go to the roof, put a hole in it. go inside, put water on the fire. thats it. it is not that hard of a job. like the ols saying goes Keep It Simple Stupid
I would have just horse stomped a hole in the roof. Much faster than wasting time with the saws and hooks.
“LAD288: I would have just horse stomped a hole in the roof. Much faster than wasting time with the saws and hooks.”
Was that a round hole? square? rectangular? trapazoidal?
How would it differ from say, a donkey punched hole???
When would I incorporate the leaf blower?
“steven December 1st, 2009 5:56 pm
why dont we just keep it simple. go to the roof, put a hole in it. go inside, put water on the fire. thats it. it is not that hard of a job. like the ols saying goes Keep It Simple Stupid”
If it was such a simple job we wouldn’t have over 100 LODD’s seemingly every year in the US…..not to mention the LODD’s we have each year up here.
Assuming it’s a simple job is killing us every year.
Every fire is different, every building is different, every dept has different resources and skill levels…..I don’t see much “easy” about this job…..not yet anyways.
Oh I just LOVE when we play the LODD card! It makes me smile. HEART ATTACKS AND CAR WRECKS! Why does everyone always talk about killing firemen, when they don’t even know what kills firemen? The numbers of firemen killed actually during interior operation due to something catastrophic is less then 10 consistently. Our job is that easy…get the people out of the building and spray water on the fire. Sure it’s dangerous, but not to the extent that we tell women in bars. Give me a break,dude.
truckies rule u engine fool, good job boys
4 all of u a** H**** who seeem 2 khow every thing all is well nothing is wrong with this opp, They r on a roof ladder , but if it is a truss roof wont matter much now will it. They r doing their job vent, enter, search, if u think this is dangerous go home and change ur TAM***!
DMAN72, balancing the US budget….easy job man….spend less than you take in…how difficult can that be….you just spend less than you make…soooo simple.
By the way….great job by the guys on the roof. A time and place for everything.
this job can be so easy when you think about it. when weare at a fire or even an ems call, if you think things are bad, then most likely it is bad. if we get out of the mind set of “being heroes” then we can lower the number of deaths of firemen. all too often we want to be a hero and end up getting into trouble inside or on the roof. so just do the job we are trained to do. train hard and play hard
i recently seen this video in a reading smoke class . this is one of the better examples of how a vertical vent should be done . great video . it shows that the guys who did this knew what they were doing . its great to see that .
Great job!!! Fire under the roof? Open up.
Strong work boys! Very effective vent!
Text book! Looks like perfect placement of the hole….No arguments here……Well placed holes have saved many attics and cocklofts……