Aaron Foster from DCFD sent in these photos of three different roof props they have at the DCFD training facility. The first is flat roof, the second is a 6/12 pitch, and the third is a 12/12 pitch. The frames of the props are made with doubled up 2×10’s. The joists are made with 2×6’s (with 2×4’s on top) attached to the 2×10 frame with joist hangers. The 2×4’s are on top as sacrificial pieces that can be easily (and cheaply) replaced after someone runs the saw too deep. The props are mounted to telephone poles that are buried into the ground. The cut surfaces are simply sheets of plywood that can quickly and easily be removed and replaced after each training exercise. The painted areas of the prop show the “do not cut” areas, and ladder placement on the pitched roofs. These props are an extremely simple and effective way to teach (and perfect) saw technique. It allows for a large group of people to observe the cutting operation to maximize on the learning opportunity.
The photo below shows the entire frame without the sheeting, you can see that the sacrificial 2x4s are not yet in place.
The picture below was taken with the prop upside down on the bay floor. Its just a closeup of how the 2×6 fits in the joist hanger with the 2×4 on top (actually on bottom in this case since the prop is upside down)
Good simple stuff. Love it.
We went there during recruit school for ventilation training. It was a great set of props and the DC folks were very hospitable and we learned a bunch.
Good stuff..I was just talking to my Captain about building a flat roof prop to compliment our pitched prop. FYI: Check with your local “Big Box Hardware stores” about discounted materials. We were able to get a bunch of stuff for our roof prop at 50% off of their “dinged and dented” price. Get with the Contractor Manager!
Thanks for the pics
…love the “sacrificial 2x4s” idea….
Great use of space. I like how easily the 2×4’s can be replaced. Using old telephone poles was also a great idea.
Great idea!!!!!!! you might want to ad a leaf blower on the underside for live fire training….it has worked great in my department. we have a prop just like this only ours has a location to place an electrical meter that we can practice pulling, and a door to practice donkey kicks.
I have the measured plans if you want them…the entire prop folds up to fit in a latex glove…..I have no idea why we built this prop because we do not have roofs in my response area!!! Did i cover them all???
Bull… You forgot the DK. Why pratice with saws? You can just donkey kick vent holes…
Good job brothers! Very well done. We have a similar training prop at our training grounds, and it works awesome!!
lad288 au contraire reread the post
An addition to this mock up would be to build it a few feet higher and have the ability to nail wallboard to the bottom of the joists to encourage the operating membship to push down the ceiling completing the vent.
As well considering the times and new lightweight construction, i.e. Wood I-Beam, Truss Loft, etc. PLEASE discuss with students the dangers involved and the ZERO warning factor in their failure when exposed to heat.
I have emplored all I teach to get this info enroute to the alarm location so as not to ascend the ladder only to descend to their bloody, screaming deaths.
I will be working on the “Donkey Kick” as well. : )
KEEP DRILLING BROTHERS.
RS
FDNY
I have thought of a prop like this that can be used for all 3 pitches. Just put some kind of bracket on the “top” poles and some loose enough to swing lag bolts on the “bottom” poles and you can train on all 3 pitches with one prop and just a few adjustments. You would have to make the frame to stick out farther on the top side to accomadate the change in length when you raise it, but that shouldn’t be a problem. It would save on space and materials, because you would only need one frame. Just a suggestion on an already great idea.
RSFDNY-
Great comments. I really think it is important to at least simulate busting through the drywall or drop down ceiling when ventilating.
Also, if the prop was high enough, you could have your department practice pulling ceilings from the underside. A good practice when entering a fire, as to confirm there is no fire over head
Whoooops. My bad. Well played Bull!
One of these should be built into a shipping container to use for both live fire/vent ops. Really could teach what it’s like then.
I like the idea of working some way to push down the ceiling. Perhaps attaching a few metal “L” brackets underneath that would allow a full or half sheet of sheet rock to be slid into place would save the trouble of having to nail/screw the sheets in after each use.
that aaron foster is a smart guy. he must work out….
I love this idea. Been trying to think of a simple and easy way to do this and this will do that….. and more.
Is it possible to get the plans?
DCFD Recruit class 362 built the props and if you send an email to James42384@aol.com and I can give you the plans. Most of them are on Google SketchUp. As a response to why we didn’t build the props higher to include ceiling (drywall) breaching after cutting the vent hole, the props are set-up on a hill so the instructor is at about eye level with all of the students when he’s up on the prop teaching. More of a convenience thing than a safety thing but its nice that the instructor doesn’t have to yell down from the prop to instruct and the students aren’t looking 15′ feet up and are more involved in the evolutions. Likewise if you find yourself a little off balance on the 12/12 pitch you will only fall far enough to get made fun of for the rest of the day, not far enough to go to the emergency room. The original plan was to have one adjustable pitch platform but we quickly learned that getting the correct hardware for supporting 2-3 people in gear plus saws/tools was going to get expensive, more expensive than building 3 props which also allows 3 different evolutions to take place at the same time.
To add to what JTC has said, after 3 1/2 months of using these props daily to teach ventilation:
1. Leaves whatever guards are on the saws, in place. While we fully realize that some people will take them off out on the street, we were wearing ourselves and our welcome out with the local donation centers replacing sacrificial 2×4’s after every single evolution.
2. The height is perfect – it’s instructor friendly, and for the guys who reset the props behind you, they’re not hauling plywood up and down a ladder to get it in place for the next group of people coming through.
3. The ceiling pulling exercise is nice – if you have drywall ceilings in your local alarm district, as it is, most of ours is plaster + lathe, which we haven’t figured out how to simulate in an easy to set-up, easy to reset, and most importantly, cheap, method.
4. I’ve never even met the guys who built this particular prop – but they’re friggin’ geniuses – I teach on it daily, and once you get the hang of it, two guys can really roll through it – one guy teaches, the other works (just like in real life!).
5. You would be surprised at what shortcomings your saws have, on just some simple OSB, and plywood operations – we’ve definitely identified a few ‘must have’ saws for our companies, and a few that we’ll be getting rid of as soon as we’re able.
Again, I’ve never met the guys who built it, but as someone who uses it daily, it’s fast efficient, and simple – something I have much respect for when it comes to a fire department operation. My hats off to the guys of DCFD RC 362 – you make the DCFD look great from Back to Basics Class, all the way through this weekend- 600+ evolutions on this prop, and it hasn’t even begun to wear out.
-TFX from T6
Absolutely awesome, the sacraficial joists are great. i need to talk to my builder and have him build me the flat roof prop at my burn building. great job DCFD and thanks for sharing!
I trained on this prop and it is awsome!
This is a great idea, been wanting a roof vent simulator for my department for a long time. Anyway it would be amazing to put this onto a container and actually simulate along with live fire but I see the problem with that being (not to mention the problems already mentioned) but the bigger problem being is that it is a metal container and gets extremely hot, prob more so that a normal house fire and would more than likely catch your brand new roof simulator on fire. Simple
2nd and this is just a little idea. If you do raise them off the ground a little, how about mounting a hinge on one said and a sheet of plywood across the bottom of the prop, along with one of those safety hasps on the other (like the ones we see on doors with padlocks all the time). Preferably one that doesn’t twist. That way you could put the plywood up and latch the little hasp with a dowel rod through the hole and after the member cuts the vent hole, he can take his tool and push down on the plywood which should break the dowel rod and voila now you have a pushed down ceiling. Granted it wouldn’t be actual fire conditions tough like a real ceiling but it would start to train the members into remembering to do that.
does anyone know where i can find plans to this prop. Want to build this at my company, but just to have something as a guide cause this one seems pretty good. Thanks
1st thanks Steve for letting me know this was online. When I was down there teaching DCFD Class 362 built this great project project back in 2010 i think. We had basic schematics on how we wanted to set this up. With the help of the talented craftsmen in the class this is how we built it:
It 8ft long and 12 feet wide (outside measurement). The outsides are doubled up 2×10’s that are an interlocking system. (that way you don’t have to nail/screw through 4″ of wood and have a more secure frame.
When you install the hangers stack the 2×4 & 2×6 first then put the hangers on accordingly since non of the lumber is a true measurement. (the hangers will not sit flush with the base)
The outside colored board is a 4×8 sheet cut in half. The colored area is for instructors to stand & direct the operator. The prop was done on the hill for 3 reasons; 1. I was told that’s the space we’re aloud to use. 2. The instructor can stand to the side of the prop. 3. Clean out from under is a lot easier. In the first picture you’ll see a 2×4 affixed to the base of the prop, thats for the “loader” to drop it in, slide it down and nail it in place (makes it flush with less work)
When you build this frame add an extra “rafter set” where the two center boards meet. (save yourself paperwork for the injured firefighter who fell through since the center won’t be supported)
The telephone poles were donated from the local power supply company who’s helped me with projects in the past. All poles were trashed and sitting in a scrap yard. (ie. Not new)
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We thought about doing a pin system – don’t. With the weight of the prop and a live load on top, the pins will bend and make for a helluva time getting them out. They will also wear the hole out. Also with a pin system, you’ll have to put pins in all 4 legs if it’s going to swivel up and down. So you’ll be putting 150-600lbs of live load plus the weight of the prop on 4 metal pins. (sounds good in theory – not practical use)
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We talked about putting this on top of a shipping container. Love the idea , wish i was still down there to try it. Only hiccup would be that the wood will dry out and lose its rigidity from the constant heat from below and lose its integrity
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The 3 props are a flat 6-12 and 12-12 pitch. (around 33 & 45 degrees.)The telephone poles had to be cut accordingly to support the weight then lag bolted in. You can also drill and bolt then together. When you cut the poles, use a chaulk line to find your cutting angle. If you are cutting a creasoot (sp) pole, expect them to dull your chainsaw VERY quickly. I would NOT use 6×6 for legs, they’ll twist warp and break. The prop was designed his way for a reason.
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Do yourself a favor and get a forklift or bobcat to move this prop around. It’s going to take a good number of members to move it into place.
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These props are used in recruit training and our back to basics programs. The instructors down there since I”ve left do an amazing job with them and are a valuable asset to teach about roof work. That being said, each board will get 2-3 cuts and the cost to replace them adds up quickly.
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Lastly – We talked about putting these props higher off the ground and attaching a metal “channel” to slide drywall in and out of for hooking ceiling. I still wish I’d have done that and can’t remember why we didn’t. (probably cost. It would be a benefit for the roof guy to “poke” the ceiling from above and the interior guy to pull from below. (always working together) If you cut a 55 gal steel drum in 1/2, smoke it up and slide it under the prop, it helps with the effect. (stay away from direct flame impingement)
Thankyou to the gentlemen of 362 of the superb work and positive feedback from you folks. I’ve got a bunch more ideas, who wants to fund them 😉
Be Safe brothers
ps. DJJIM- still working out – when are you going to join me sir? & Thanks to the fella at T6. Cheers
I showed these props to my chief and we would like to build them. Where can I get the designs for these props.
Shoot me an email at zachary.s.weber@us.army.mil and I can help you design your props…. I am a firefighter and an architect/builder. I have built numerous props in the past and can help you on this and others… Stay safe and train hard.
Hi Zac, the Lido Pt Lkout fire district wants me to construct these training facilities at their training facility in Lido Beach NY. They want me to do this on top of a 2 story shipping container.. After reading all these comments i don’t think its such a great idea to do this design 18′ in the air. I’de much rather do a groung construction such as the one shown in this article, using telephone poles and close to the ground.
Since i am not a VF but only the contactor cousin of one, these are new concepts for me.The construction seems pretty straigt forward.. I like working off of blueprints and would appreciate any help, comments suggestions you have to offer.
Sincerely
Ira Auerbach
Lido Home Improvement inc
30 Donna Lane
Lido Beach NY 11561
714 552 9279
iraauerbach@gmail.com
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Is it still possible to get the build diagram on this prop?
Hello,
Anyway to get the plans for these?
Thank you,
Jason
Jason.rose.3@us.af.mil