Our friends over at firevideo.net recently posted this excellent video of the Vent Enter Search (VES) tactic. When utilizing the VES tactic a very important decision always has to be made, you have to ask yourself “is it worth it… is that a survivable room?†This question applies for the unprotected victims we are trying to rescue and to the firefighter’s performing the search.
The outside team (or who ever is going to perform VES) needs to perform a VES size-up. When sizing up the building to determine what windows you are going to VES you need to evaluate where the fire has been, where the fire is now, and were the fire is going next. This VES size-up allows you to determine the priority of windows to VES. Another thing this VES size-up will do is allow you to determine what rooms (if any) are not worth entering at this time. Sometimes difficult decisions have to be made.
When performed correctly, VES is an extremely effective tactic to remove trapped victims.
[flv]http://www.vententersearch.com/videos/flv/vesbailout.flv[/flv]
**** Please be sure to read the comment below from Rick Van Sant made on November 22nd. He is the guy in the video, and his first hand description of the event should be read prior to making any comments ****
WOW……
This guys first day was almost his last.
Back to the academy……..
Wow. As you guys stated in your intro, an important aspect of VES is determining what rooms are worth entering. As the window is being taken, you can see that the room is already involved. Not a good decision. An important priorty to VES is entering an UNINVOLVED room and controlling the door immediately. With a room already involved, what did these guys expect to happen when the widow was taken. At least they did place the ladder correctly for a window bail, and the FF looked like he was prepared to do it.
Stupidity.
The conditions in that room did not look favorable prior to entering it, and I’ll admit I don’t think I would have entered it. Thank god he didn’t get hurt or the other firefighter, who dismounted the ladder.
Oh you guys are toooo kind! You ever wonder why we injure so many FF’s every year? I don’t care if you don’t know if anyone is in the building or not, when a whole bunch of fire comes out the window, they are not salvagable. Need I go on about risk vs. benefit? New Years resolution 2009-Let’s eliminate this Front page, Channel 8, Backdraft, Ladder 49, macho, non-thinking, black helmet, burnt gear, red ear, firehouse story, publicity stunt bullsh@t! Maybe next year we can stay under 100 LODD’s and 80,000 injuries! (With RESPECT to those who have fallen)
I am speechless.
Well I am never one to question anyone on here, but I do not know what this guy was thinking. The room was well to involved for anyone to enter. In addition we have to realize that fire lights up a room he could have easily climbed up and looked into the room not seeing anyone he could have moved on. I do not know what some of these guys think when they do this. I guess we are all superman? Be safe, god bless.
Wow,
Shouldn’t read excellent video on VES, should say excellent video on when not to perform VES. This guy is lucky to be alive and not in the burn center. Remember the basics, Risk vs Gain, read the fire before entering. #1 priority is us! And how about putting some water on the fire, that still works……
Holy Shit! Thats has to be one of the stupidest moves I’ve ever seen! Are you kidding me! Put the fucking fire out! I see ladders going up and no line being stretched. I hate to arm chair anything I watch on the internet because I wasnt there. But come on! This guy almost commited suicide. And I’m sure he’s bragging in the fire house kitchen. Guys the most important thing to do is to put the fire out, then everything else gets better. This is a perfect example of tunnel vision. Please learn from this.
Umm, this guy was doing his job. Although we have the ability to see where it went, this man did not. Would he have entered it knowing it was going to light up like that? Probably not. If a known life hazard was there I would have been right behind him on that ladder, and it would have been a$$’ and elbows to get out. This is also an excellent video that shows how fast things change and even though guys always stress the importance of a bail out rope, in many instances they are not practical, this one being an excellent example.
Anyone know where this video originated? Looks like out West judging by that axe on his hip.
I just watched it again! I can’t beleive it. He waits for the ladder with all of his PPE on. They throw the ladder up, break the window with the ladder ( good move) then failed to notice the fire condition even when he got up the top of the ladder. Then he goes in the window head first ( a bad move) never enter a window head first. Professionals stradle the sill and enter like gentlemen. And no water on the fire. And I’m a Truckie and I know the importance of water on the fire. Guys bash this video all you want it deserves it. Because of a stupid move he made a brother jump off of a ladder from the second floor. The last thing I ever want to do is cause an injury to brother because of something I did!
Was there even an engine on scene yet? VES should be coordinate with the advancement of a hose line. this looks like cowboy stuff
Doing his job? You’re kidding? I’m a career fireman and my job isn’t to get killed or incenerated or hurt my fellow brothers. This is classic tunnel vision. If you want a lesson on VES this is a what not to do. This video should be a lesson on Engine ops. Its obvious you didn’t learn from this video Jon. Because you said you would have been right behind him. And you too would be in the burn unit with him. Not a smart statment. You gotta have brains and balls. Your balls can get you killed. Or in a lot of trouble, in and out of the fire service!
Not a good move I don’t think. That room is fully involved, and even if there were victims inside that room, there way past the tenable stage. What did he think when he went inside that room – the fire was going to get smaller? No – there was no water in the fire, and it was only a matter of time before the fire grew and flashed on him. He’s real lucky he didn’t have more time in there and got disoriented. Unbelievable.
It said searching for an occupant. Not that one might have been in there or could have been, they were. So until we prove they aren’t go do a search. The room did not look that big, he could have done it from the window just using his eyes as it was vented, but he may have seen the victim and could have made the grab.
A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer.
Maybe I am not one of the Brunacini fight it from outside cowards when it comes to an occupied building, taxpayers and other garbage who cares. But if my loved one was in there, or yours you bet your ass I would make an attempt to get them.
Jon,
What exactly did you mean by
“Although we have the ability to see where it went, this man did not. Would he have entered it knowing it was going to light up like that? Probably not.”
Are you saying that he should have no idea that the room would take off when they took the window? I hope to hell he did. A FF has no business near a structure fire if they can’t predict basic fire behavior.
There is absolutely no good reason here to justify this guys actions. so many guys have already said this but, I’m throwing my two cents in wether it’s repetitive or not. WTF was this guy thinking? There was no way an unprotected civilian would survive in that atmosphere. They may have survived the initial conditions, but once the flashover occurred, forget it! Plus he would have never had enough time to get the victim to the window, up into it, and passed out to his partner all while those conditions continued to worsen around them. How can anyone even argue this for a second.
Apparently this guy’s “partner” didn’t understand the techniques too well or care for his brother too much either because he let him do it in the first place.
why even go in? the fire conditions in that room should tell you imdeietly not to go in there, also the firefighter should have picked up the tell tale signs of a flashover (thick smoke, red glow, extreme heat) and agreeing with all the previous posts, i dont even think they should have entered because the chances of life in that room are slim to none, so why cant we use common sense and rely on our training to know that room is gonna flash and not enter it?
Just being the devil’s advocate for a second here. What if there was a KNOWN life in that room, how could we handle it? I’m not saying I would do any of the following, I’m just throwing things out there.
1. What if we had a line available outside. If we aren’t going to enter a pre-flashover condition, what if we hit it real quick with a line, and then did enter and search? What about a can or two from the ladder?
2. If you say “no way am I putting a line in a compartment with a victim” ask yourself, how would I handle this room with a known fire victim from the INSIDE? Would you do a quick knock down and search the room, or would you crawl into in current conditions?
We are currently doing VES training and will utilize this video as a training tool. I hope our brother came away unhurt and with a better respect for what we face. I appreciate the video for the discussion it will bring. “Risk a lot for a lot, a little for a little”
This ves is way better. it looks like it was set up for this video by him knowing his exact ladder placement in regrds to the window, but is a great example i believe. enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N09e4p48Ao
I haven’t heard anyone mention IC yet….what were “both” of them thinking….firefighter and incident command. I’m assuming this wasn’t some cowboy move and he had instructions as to what was to be done.
Good Heavens! I started out watching the video focusing on the Fireman on the A/D corner as the focal point of the video, thinking “he better get moving on that room” all the while also thinking that the other room was already a loss in terms of a viable VES move….boy was I apparently wrong! I have been always under the schooling that if there is a locomotive pushing “black fire” out of a window or if there is any orange, look for the line placement and progress and/or look for another window. I saw none of that type of decision-making here.
Is it over-agressiveness (cowboy), stupidity (lack of training/experience) or am I missing something here? Was it “Hey let me try that cool bail-out I just learned in fire school after I jump into this already-involved room?” I am stumped, and I have been called “over-agressive” on numerous occasions in my career.
Intrestingly enough it has also been my experience that once the hallway and bedroom ceiling lights up with proper venting as it appeared to have here, you “should” have a quick glimpse of the whole room or at least the floor contents. (I believe Evan was referring to this also in an above post.) So here I am thinking that the FF was just going for a look of the room….wrong again.
Awesome video….yes. Awesome tactics….not even close. The write-up header of this video should be adapted to show the concerns mentioned, since we don’t need guys doing this….it’s down right silly. VES is supposed to operate in conjunction with a properly-placed handline (hopefully!) in a “people trapped” or an “occupant’s unaccounted for” scenario. Remember “RISK A LITTLE TO SAVE A LITTLE AND RISK ALOT TO SAVE ALOT”. No “Reported people trapped” in this case would warrant a differen’t approach to the VES shown. With everyone reported out of the dwelling, and no operating handline in place, VES is simply adding to an already volitle situation.
In closing, I would bring this guy a six pack in the burn center if this was a “my little Johnny is in that room right there” situation, however that is CLEARLY not the case in this video judging from the on-going operations, so he would get my boot in his a$$ instead for making an unnecessary move.
I know there is a lot of assumptions from simply looking at a video and I don’t mean to beat a dead horse here, but it’s sure better than beating a dead brother Fireman for making a stupid move.
The lack of understanding fire behavior is the biggest problem, tactically, plaguing the fire service, building construction is number two. We need to place a larger emphasis on training our people, regardless of certification level or pay status, in this area and this video only appears to reinforce that. There are many great instructors out there teaching “advanced” stuff, guys like Dave Dodson, that should be part of our intial training.
We also need to take a look at how we are teaching VES ops. Are we discussing fire behavior and risk management, or are we merely teaching the techniques of it…
Stay safe, stay low
I’ve watched this a couple of times, and trying not to judge when I don’t know all of the details, I question why no effort was being made to begin hitting this fire from the doorway to the left of the video. It’s one thing to vent/enter/search when it is prudent to do so, but if you have the ability to start cooling the fire down, if not out, then why not do so? If, and that is if, a line was in place at the doorway just moments before the window was laddered it may have begin lowering temperatures below the flashover point and thereby giving additional time to do a primary search. By no means am I an expert, but just wanted to share my thoughts too.
Stupid move? You bet. Overly agressive. Sure. However, to make SOMETHING good out of this, give a call to COWBOY’S partner who stayed at the tip of the ladder taking a beating when the room flashed to guide him out rather than heading for the hills when the shit went bad. I’ve been left by an asshole when conditions went bad and this guy stayed put. Should he have stopped the guy from heading into hell? Yeah. Did he stay with his partner when hell showed up? Yep. Should they have made this move in the first place? Absolutely not. Remember the little sticker: 1* (one ass to risk)…
Sean, i completly agree with you on your response, this whole operation can be linked back to the risk/reward process, in which there was no reward so there should be no risk involved at all what so ever, so the guys who were doing the VES should have taken this into consideration
what is there to save? This is a good example of why 100 firefighters die a year. Stupid
maybe he thought he could get in and CLOSE THE DOOR and buy some time for the search
new Title “Risking another brother’s life in a futile effort.” I blame the officer that ordered him to enter. He assessed, made an oder, and didn’t take into effect that fire is dynamic and ever changing. The firefighter should have known not to enter once he assessed from on top the ladder, but the Officer still needs to better use risk management. Why were we taking this risk when their wasn’t anything to save?
Great video and comments….I love this site….you guys certainly call’em as you see’em. Very good lesson in how to commit suicide while on the job. If you want to see how a VES is suppose to work check out this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zl9U2VtSck
Roger
First and foremost the IC needs his ass whipped for even allowing something like that to happen. And if one was not in place, his officer needs his ass whipped. Young guys get tunnel vision and you have to keep them focused. This guy clearly needs some education on VES, size-up, fire behavior and risk vs benefit. Secondly, the caption that describes this video needs to be re-written to reflect VES WAS NOT AN OPTION in this video and that it should be used as a training tool to point out all the wrongs on this fire scene. I would love to know where this is from. Anyone got a lead on it?
I cant understand why we do this stupid shit. I totally agree with putting it on the line for KNOWN and SAVEABLE VICTIMS but cmon. Why would you enter a room that is begging to light up? Is it the big cool valor award you may recieve , the charred black helmet, or I know the big tough guy story you’ll have so you can tell all the guys at the firehouse. I want know where was his officer(s) and why are we entering fire buildings especially residential structures without a handline. VES is an excellent tactic but it does not have its place at every fire and is not for every firefighter. I have seen so many VES videos and just about everyone is different. A few things you really never here Whats the location of the fire? Whats the smoke look like? Is it pushing? Whats the level of heat prior to entry? Heres my favorite you never hear has the engine company stretched a line do they have water and are they ready to make entry? I will say tho this video is great to show all the younger less experienced brothers. Let them see what not to do. We kill and injure way to many of ouselves each year for nothing. Remember you turnout gear is made to help buy you time so you can get out of a bad situation its not intended for you to purposely put yourself in one. THINK BEFORE YOU ACT!!! I know everyones entitled to thier opinion but Jon you are out there man. Please re think your outlook on this I dont want to read about you on the secret list.
This video is posted on a few other sites. Some of the info points to the fact that this is a CAPTAIN!?! that does this.
Call me over-aggressive, but being the relative of a fire victim I would at least want an attempt at a rescue. Its a thin line between bravery and stupidity, one we walk along every time we step foot in a fire.
Are you kidding me? This guy is a moron and those who let him go in are even bigger morons!! Before the ladder was thrown to the window you could see that the room was already involved with fire.
What disturbs me is that no one is using any hose lines for attack, defense or RIT. There is no water being put on the fire and someone is worried about a victim. Hate to break to you, but if there was a victim, they are gone. Again…Risk vs. Benefit.
Another fucking “hero”, very stupid and lucky he was not hurt. I only hope someone learned from his mistake.
Oh and Jon, do us all a favor and ride on the ambulance. If you think for a minute that this makes any since you are not only a risk on the fire ground but may have brain damage as well. Remember if you become a victim how can you help others, not only for that day but for the future as well..
Bottom line is that FF almost died being fully encapsulated in PPE and SCBA after only being in that room a few seconds. Any victim in their normal night ware is long past viable before they even threw that ladder! Someone should have stopped this from happening, but they didn’t and a situation like this becomes another day when we all end up dressed up in Class A’s outside a church. Think!!!!!
“Call me over-aggressive, but being the relative of a fire victim I would at least want an attempt at a rescue. Its a thin line between bravery and stupidity, one we walk along every time we step foot in a fire.”
well obviously your leaning more towards the stupid line in this case, if your willing to sacrifice one of your guys to a flashover prone enviroment in which the visible conditions are clearly showing signs of a pre-flashover enviroment, then you and i have have two totally different opinions, why, in any case send your guys into an enviroment that looks like that, knowing all the conditions are right for a flashover, and telling them to enter, it just doesnt seem right to me
Sure, we do have the line between bravery and stupidity and at sometimes it is a very fine line, but use your common knowledge and go back to your training, and then maybe it will turn into more of the bravery situation instead of the stupidity one.
Standing outside on the sidewalk (or for that matter sitting in a chair in front of a computer) We can all tell that there is plenty of fire through out the house. And sitting here its so easy after seeing the outcome to say “no way” but VES is all about getting to the top of the ladder and ascertaining the conditions. Granted that window on AD may have been a better option but without being able to stand at the top of the ladder and looking inside we don’t know what the thought process was. Telling the difference between contents burning and the actual room being off is the essential skill here. Was the fire in that room just pushing down the hallway that a closed door could have held back, or mabey a second fire from remnants from an arson attempt in that room. The decision at the top of the ladder was wrong but it was two second decision that if had turned out right could have ended up in a grab. Im not defending the decision at the top of the ladder but without knowing the result and seeing only what we see from the street lets not make this out to such a black and white decision. Im sure we can imagine how frustrating it could be to pull up first in, with possible people trapped and no engine.
Dude..perfect comment Greg, nicely put. It is easy for us to look at this video, see the outcome and say “WTF”, but what if at the end of this video the FF came out with a kid, while having the fire licking his ass, would we be saying “Dude nice grab, crazy and ballsy, but strong work”. Instead let’s look at this video and say “Wow this video gives me the perfect reason to go back to my firehouse, get the crew together, and train on VES, reading smoke, fire, building size-up, ect”…..
EGH
Now Now, lets not beat the guy up that much, you dont know the true conditions of that room. Yes we saw a glow from the window, but when he got to the top of that ladder for all we know the fire could have just started to roll through the doorway. If this is the case all he had to do was close the bedroom door thus giving him enough time to do a quick search and making the conditions in the room good enough to give anyone in there an extra couple of seconds.
We werent there, dont monday morning quarterback too much. But he did a good job on getting out atleast.
his head first ladder bail was perfect!!…I guess you wanna have that down pat if you are planning on doing what he did.
WTF
Getting out of the room he shouldn’t have been in was performed correctly. But again HE SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN IN THERE! Jon. The bravest thing you can do, is go home to your wife and kids and take care of them.
Teach your guys that they have the option to say “NO” and not get torn apart for it. This may have been his first fire and he thought he was expected to enter without hesitation? A tactic I have started using is to ask your guys when you get back from a worker, “What kind of car was in the driveway?” or, “How many trees were in the front yard?†It makes your guys stop, take a breath, and think for just a second before they “Engage the Fire”! Guys, just slow down!
Smoke Eaters and Glory Hounds, Go away, we don’t need your kind in the fire service!
Think about this…Did our macho image push that FF in the window? We are all guilty and, we were all there with him!!
How many LODD funerals must there be before people learn to read a fire? Every sign was there to show that that room would flash as soon as it did. If there had been a victim in that room there was zero chance of them having been still alive. So why enter and take the risk? Just plain stupid cowboy crap that too often leads to us having to dress up in our Class-A uniforms with a black band across the badge.
There is a lot of talk about I.C. and risk vs benifit going on now that more people have started posting. I agree with some, where was the officer in charge? is he the voice wandering around the yard telling them to “get him out” instead of making better decisions on how to stop this fire from getting any bigger and therefore actually making the conditions more tenable for the firefighters and possible victims that they might be able to save.
Part of the risk vs benifit that everyone likes to talk about not only includes assessing the conditions of the building and the fire’s extent, the survival chances of both the firefighters and the victims still reported to be inside but also what is the realistic chances of this victim surviving if you do get them out. Sounds terrible, I know, but I’ve always gone by the thought of save the ones that are definately viable victims. Similar to the people trapped above a fire and not in it.
Maybe I’m wrong.
We don’t get to see what happens to these guys after the video ends? does our interior firefighter end up in the back of the ambulance on the way to the hospital? does the guy who jumped out of the way ( which was an excellent desicion to make) end up sitting the rest of the incident out with a sprained or broken ankle? who are they helping then, definately not the victims because their last chance at life is now laying in the front yard, not their fellow firefighters or i.c. now that they may have reduced the available manpower on the scene.
Jon,
Please do us all a favor, if your mentality ever lands you a role in one of these videos, please, as you slide down the ladder pause for just a moment and give us all a wave so we know it’s you
Ok, this old boy made a huge mistake by entering this window. I agree completely. But I need someone to elaborate on this “Risk VS Gain” stuff for me. Some of these posts are concerning to me and maybe you could clear it up for me. This Brunacini line is great when it comes to deciding am I gonna drop in this window or not. But are we not going to enter a structure because mom is in the front yard saying that everyone is out? I hope not! Are we not going to enter a structure because it is said to be vacant? Are we going to knock it down from the front yard before entering. NO NO NO! THE FD AND THE FD ONLY GIVES AN ALL CLEAR. The only way to achieve an all clear is to get in there via VES and interior searches. We all signed on to protect lives and poperty. Cant do that from the front yard.
I know I know we have to write a building off at some point due to the volume of fire. But we should not be writing buildings off and going defensive for no other reason than “RISK A LITLE TO SAVE LITTLE” Every building is occupied until proven otherwise. BY US! If there is a tennable portion, it is our JOB to make searches. Risk a lot to save a lot every time you go to a job. Dont sit out front, because you were told it is vacant. Know your consitions, Know your limits, Be aggresive, But be smart.
PJS, I dont know who taught you to VES but you always drop in hands first to stay below the heat and be quick. While you are busy sitting on the window like a gentleman, I will be done with my search trying to make the next room.
This is an excellent discussion. I’ve checked this site regularly for about a year, but never felt the need to comment until today. Let’s clear the air and be frank, but thoughtful here. Also, let’s stick to what the video does (and doesn’t) show. This video is a Captain with the Indianapolis Fire Department. I work for IFD also. I was NOT there. As a member of a two-man squad company, our assignment is unprotected primary search at EVERY working fire we go on. I’ve easily done over 40 such searches so far this year alone. More than most, less than many, I’m sure. Not every search a perfect one, either. But that is my background. At some point, every tactic involves an element of personal decision. If you have not personally experienced this, you will. I agree that all things being equal, the tactics shown are very aggressive and other points of entry would be MY first choice. Unless, of course, THAT room was the one reported to have a victim. I do not know if that was the case or not, but the video doesn’t say. As for the talk of hoses, RIT, etc. There are two RIT companies at every IFD working fire. The fire isn’t still burning, so someone must have brought a hose. If you’ve never experienced a delay in hoseline placement or advancement, you will and you’d better search with that potential in mind. Perhaps he expected the line to advance more rapidly that what is depicted. Like others have spoken to, the “other” choices in this video are solid. Two ladders at the front to “probable” (based on external indications & experience of residential layouts) bedroom windows at exaggerated angles for egress. Two potential VES operations. Again, the video isn’t really clear on what happened at the other window. The back-up guy, given the conditions, remaining at the sill to monitor and assist if needed. If you’re going to bail, that video shows a fairly safe, deliberate way to do it, even under extreme conditions. The personal choice to enter… IMHO we just don’t know enough to second guess here. But do everything else right and you improve your chances of success dramatically. Chance favors the prepared. Good discusson fellas.
“Really” why the hell would you even make entry the room was alreadt showing flames in the window before they broke it that was really a close call………
“Unprotected primary search” and, already over 40 this year! Man, I guess IFD is the REAL Fire Factory! Had no idea that a single crew could make over 40 UNPROTECTED dives into burning structures each year! And, that’s only one crew in one part of town! Is it me or does the phrase “our assignment is unprotected primary search at EVERY working fire we go on” bother any of you? I do agree that the video leaves a lot of first hand information out and, I’m the first to say “give the guy the benefit of the doubt” but, any department that routinely conducts “unprotected primary searches” as part of their routine initial assignments is not acting with Firefighter safety as their first priority.
So Kirk, I guess what you are saying, is, VES is dangerous and we shouldn’t do it? I do believe VES to be an unprotected primary search. I do believe it to be dangerous. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. It is proven that VES puts our members in the most likely place to find victims. That’s where training and knowing your conditions is an integral part of being the OVM. That’s why probies are not making outside vents. Firefighter safety comes at the Firehouse. Training to know when and where to vent and when and what window you can dive into. I guess the FDNY, INDY, Boston,etc. must not know what they are doing if they are putting guys in these positions Uh? No one ever said this was a safe job.
100+ LODD per year and thousands of injuries. Our mentality has got to change. I’m not proud of those numbers. I never said I don’t agree with VES but, I do not agree with routinely putting our guys in unnecessary danger because the acronym fits. Believe me, I know the job is not safe (Been a front line Lt for over 10 years and most of that at a busy downtown station that makes over 4000 runs per year). I do have some credibility in my opinions. Our kick ass macho image is getting us killed for tradition’s sake. I don’t want my name on a plac with the saying “But he was conducting Vent Enter Search and INDY does it”! I have a tremendous amount of respect for my brothers and sisters in FDNY, INDY, Boston, etc. but the facts are that those departments are often the last and hardest to change when a problem is noted because the tradition is so strong there. Just consider that our industry might not be perfect and, change is not necessarily a bad thing.
“our assignment is unprotected primary search at EVERY working fire we go on†bother any of you?….. NO it sure does not. Don’t let a hose line be a cushion of safety for you my friend, ya its nice to have. But those on the hose line get burnt too. If those conditions start getting really bad i’m not gonna sit around and wait on it to show up cause i feel safe and i got my lucky hose with me. Training hard, knowing your buildings,fire behavior and smoke conditions that’s my protection as a OVM. I do feel that the fireman in the video saw the fire rolling into the room and tried to make the door to close it off. Did anyone get anymore info on this video?
HEY DICKS,
WHY THE FUCK DO YOU SEARCH A HOUSE WITH NO ONE IN IT?? SIZE UP STARTS ON THE OUTSIDE! IF THE WHOLE FAM DAMILY IS STANDING IN THE DRIVEWAY, YOU ARE PARTIALLY(AT LEAST) RETARDED FOR PUTTING SOMEONE IN THAT POSITION. NOBODY ALWAYS OR NEVERS ANYTHING. FIREFIGHTING IS DYNAMIC, WHICH MEANS EVER CHANGING IF YOU WILL FOR YOU ENGINE GUYS, NO TWO SITUATIONS REQUIRE THE SAME ACTION EVERYTIME. WAS A BAD DECISION MADE, PROBABLY. BUT WERE THEY DOING THEIR JOB, YES. SAFELY, PROBABLY NOT. THEREFORE IF YOU AREN’T FDNY, INDY, OR WHOEVER THE HELL ELSE YOU GUYS JERK OFF TO, DO YOUR OWN JOB AT YOUR OWN DEPARTMENT!
Ok, men! Twelve words…”RISK A LOT TO SAVE A LOT, RISK LITTLE TO SAVE LITTLE”. There is no way in hell, which I am sure that is what hell will be like. That room, if not already is close to fully involved. I can’t speak for the dead or the severely burned, but if there is a trapped victim in there, that victim is not going to have a heartbeat, lungs left, clothing, or skin left on in that room. I’m sure these guys have big balls like the rest of us, but it comes a time when the officer has to step in and say no way we are not going in that room or structure for that matter. We are putting to damn many guys and gals on that beautiful granite wall in Colorado Springs every September to be searching rooms like that (sorry if you are not union).
Jon, as for your comments above, I love your aggressive nature, I’m right there with you, but there comes a time when we all have to ask ourselves is that room really survivable? If it is burning our necks and backs when we are in there, then a victim isn’t going to live through it. I say make as many rescues as possible and give the victims the benefit of the doubt, but let’s quit burying firemen for rooms and buildings that aren’t survivable. From the start of this video that fire is visible at the front door and through the roof already. What does that mean? Think about it.
Dman72,
Why do we search a house when the family is in the driveway saying that everyone is out? Because the family has just been woken up in the middle of the night and dropped into the most stressful situation of their life. Their information is unreliable.
Add to this these possible scenarios:
-Their child had a friend sleep over and they forgot.
-Their child slept over at some one else’s house and came home without the parents knowledge during the night.
-Their neighbor is an off duty firefighter and entered through the rear as the family escaped through the front and is overcome by smoke.
-They are babysitting their grandchild for the night.
Under extreme stress peoples brains DON’T WORK RIGHT! As OFD said earlier: “Every building is occupied until proven otherwise. BY US!â€
I am in no way condoning what was done in the video under those conditions. Just food for thought. Anyone else want to add to this list of possibilities? I love this site and the discussion that it generates.
I don’t think anyone in this discussion is debating the fact of wether or not the house is occupied until we confirm it is clear. The issue is with how this particular VES was attempted and how uneccessary risks were taken.
I’ve commented a few times on this video. If he saw someone at the window a few seconds before the ladder went up I’d give him a pass. Maybe! But the window was black from heat. Windows show when they are about to fail. Thats was a clear example of that. To be fully buttoned up on the front lawn leads to tunnle vision because all you can see is what you see through your facepiece. I’ll tell you one thing Vinny Dunn’s point of no return in a flashover was proved here. This guy is reall lucky to be alive! Notice too he dives in the window head first no tools in his hands. You should always have a tool in your hand. A halligan is great some guys take the hook and leave it at the sill pointing in the room so they know where the window is. And remeber in most private dwellings the window is usually across from the door. try to close the door while you search but remember to open it when you’re done since it helps with the vent. Its amazing how many departments have NO tactics! that was an example of no tactics.
I have to say that, I have read a lot of these postings and I will remind everyone that there is always another view or views that you do not see. When you are in command you get three views of the structure, not jsut one view from the side walk as presented here. It is very easy to “arm chair” this one.
I personally know this crew, the cameraman and the situation. With out divulging who, what and where, I will ensure you that the room was not on fire and it was the hall way serving the room. There was good intel to put the lady in that room and this firefighter was going for the door to shut it when it flashed. No he wouldn’t have gone in to a room that was not survivable.
Also, this perticular guy knows he is very lucky. He is heavily involved with firefighter survival training and due to this has saved many lives as well as phyisically aiding in the safe keeping and wellbeing of many firefighters and civillians.
Please continue to use this as a good resourse for training. But do not confuse yourselves thinking that you have all the info. And don’t dare tarnish a good firefighter actions based on this one window.
Thanks
I would hope we can all agree a primary and secondary search is a basic skill and is preformed on all fires. Even a quick sweep around the inside of the room with a tool around the window and back down the ladder I could understand but that was crazy. I think just about everything that has had to be said has been and now we are whipping a dead horse, but hell keep blasting it is a chuckle.
I ride a Squad in IFD also but I wasn’t on this fire. I think the Ladder Capt. would tell you, in hindsight, it wasn’t the smartest move ever.
But,…… and this is a big but ………it was dispatched as a reported entrapment, early in the morning. Engine was making it’s attack on the first floor (which was fully involved).
As for whether or not the room was tenable for life. I don’t know…. but a kid under a blanket, in a closet in that room ? Hmmmmmm ??? Maybe ?
Capt.’s been on the job a while and I’d imagine he made a “risk v. benefit” assessment at the top of that ladder and decided it was worth the risk. I’m sure he was hoping he either had enough time to shut the door or get in and out before things went south.
As for the “unprotected primary search” thing. That means if a Ladder or Squad is first on scene we don’t wait for the Engine to show up to start our search….but we are hoping they get there fast.
We’re not suicidal but we are aggressive….there is a difference. Even heavily involved structures have areas and rooms where people can survive. Don’t write them off without a search and put it down to a “risk V. benefit assessment”. Let’s be firemen and not insurance brokers.
Wow. Entering a window with flames already showing when busting the window with roof ladder hooks. First one in no mask, it was hanging. No hose, huh. As a Firefighter I and II instructor good video of not what to do. Was ICS in use or were they freelancing? I realize rescue is near the top but the benefit of a successful rescue is not there. I agree with a way earlier comment, lets make next year safer to reduce LODD’s. This was close to being two LODD’s.
Was ICS in use? Were they freelancing? I dont believe SOP’s to be freelancing. Trucks do truck work(VES). It is predetermined in my department that the OVM and the truck driver will be doing VES. Is that Freelancing when they get off the rig and do exactly that?
Was ICS in use? Well just because the chief isnt on scene doesn’t mean he doesn’t know what is going on. The boss knows we are following SOP’s. Based on a good on scene report he knows where the units will be operating upon making the scene. We do not believe in establishing command with the first do company officer until a chief arrives. We beilieve that the company officer needs to be inside, not the firemen who may lack the experience of the officer. NFPA and IFSTA is not the answer to a safer Fire Service of tomorrow.
First thing that should have been done mentally is a size-up. If this is the initial still companies they should have some basic idea of this floor plan. It seems very similar to the split levels on a majority of streets in my still district and probably many of yours. My guess is a family room to the left and a narrow stairwell on the right leading to the second floor, 2 front bed rooms and master in the CD corner and a bath at the top of the stairs. Secondly,knowing this basic layout with fire venting from the roof, what appeared to be a good push from the D side and the rollover going on in the search room you got to say WTF!!! Also the main entry was fully involved, where was the initial line that was commented on. You have to know in the back of your mind that these conditions aren’t tenable.
I am an advocate of VES. It is a proven tactic that has saved countless lives, but how many times have you seen firemen going into conditions we know aren’t survivable only to be chased out a few quick moments later. If you haven’t seen it in person we have all seen the videos. This isn’t the first time or the last time this will happen, but collectively we need to size up conditions better in these types of situations.
And Bob by no means does this one lack in judgment tarnish a career but it almost cost him his life.
well, here goes my first website post ever,but when my friends said my 15 minutes was happening, i had to look.
I’m the guy in the video, and against my better judgement, i feel the need to set this thing straight.
First off, i’m a captain in indianapolis, and have 23 years in the busiest companies in the city. I’ve been to a couple of fires.
Because you weren’t there, i would tell you to watch the video again after i explain things, and maybe you’ll think differently.
This was a 4:00 am fire dispatched as entrapment, with excitement in the dispatchers voice. We were the first ladder company on the scene, and we were met with cars in the driveway, and neighbors screaming that there was a woman in that room.
Because of the involvement in the rest of the house, VES was going to be the only option on this one.
When we vent the window with the ladder, it looks like the room is burning, but the flames you see are coming from the hallway, and entering through the top of the bedroom doorway. Watch it again and you’ll see the fire keeps rolling in and across the ceiling.
When i get to the window sill, the queen-sized bed is directly against the window wall, so there is no way to “check the floor” like the textbook geeks gigged me for not doing. Notice that you continue to see my feet going in, because i’m on the bed.
Believe me, in the beginning, this was a tenable room both for me and for any victim that would have been in there. How else could i have been on the bed, 3 feet above the floor, calmly entering. Trust me when i say that i know what hot is, and this was no hotter than any other fire i’ve been in.
My goal was to get to the door and close it, just like VES is supposed to be done. We do it successfully all the time.
When i reached the other side of the bed, i dropped to the floor and began trying to close the door. Unfortunately, due to debris on the floor, the door would not close.
Conditions were still quite tenable at this point, but i knew with the amount of fire entering at the upper level, and smoke conditions changing, things were going to go south fast. As stated earlier, i’ve been doing this for 23 years, and i know fire behavior.
I kept my eyes on my exit point, and finished my search, including the closet, which had no doors on it. Just as i was a few feet from the window, the room lit off, and the rest is history, and fodder for all the self-proclaimed experts.
It’s hard for me to imagine that firefighters who weren’t there can find so much fault with a firefighter who did exactly what we’re supposed to do. For you textbook geeks, that means risking a lot to save a savable life. Like i said earlier, when i first made this room, it was NOT on fire like the video makes it look. I’ll give you this much; once the flashover occurred, no civilian could have survived, but if she would have been in there, maybe, just maybe i could have gotten her out before it happened.
I have to wonder what you would be saying if the video showed me just staying at the top of the ladder, never entering like many of you suggested, and later we found her corpse lying on the other side of the bed. Instead of calling me an idiot, you’d call me a coward. I’ll take idiot any time!
To “Dave” from my department who said he’d guess that i would probably look back now and say it wasn’t the smartest thing to do, you’re absolutely right. It was the ONLY thing to do. And if i’m faced with that exact same situation a hundred more times, i’ll be in that window every time, because i’m a fireman.
And if anyone wonders why i was aware of my surroundings at all times, why i was able to recognize when flashover was imminent, and why i pulled off a head-first ladder slide without a hitch….TRAINING!
To the guy who said i had no facepiece on..you’re freakin’ joking right? What you see dangling is my hand-lantern. Do you carry one?
And to the guy who says i have no tool, look at the axe handle sticking out of my SCBA belt. It’s not in my hand, because when i do a search, i know when i’m touching a body with my hand. When i hit it with a tool, it’s anyone’s guess what i’m touching. But i ALWAYS have a tool.
In closing, i would only suggest that when you watch a video from now on, remember that you weren’t there.
And if you were faced with the same situation, with the exact same conditions i was faced with, if you wouldn’t have done the same thing, then i’m glad you’re not on my job.
stay safe brothers
KA-PLOW!!! Strong work Captain!!! Thanks for that post, and for setting stuff straight. First and foremost I’m glad your ok. This is a great web site, and I have picked up a lot of great tips, as well as training topics to disscuss and share with my crew, but…..way to often folks use this site to full on bash people, tactics, or departments. And yes it does happen, just read some of the post’s for yourself. Is that really how we learn? Is that really the way to become a better fireman, by pointing fingers and bashing people? I think not. I’ve been around the fire service for 17yrs now, and I do not have the time in now, nor will I ever have enough time on this job, to watch a “video” and then be able to tell someone what they did so wrong at a fire that I was never at.
I think it is wise for some of “us” on this site be a tad bit more selective in the comments you write. This is a place to pick up tips, tricks, and training topics. This isn’t a place to call people “dicks” “idioits”, or f**king stupid, keep that shit to yourself. WE don not bash each other in this Brotherhood, leave that crap to the polictians.
In hindsite the first comment reguarding this video should have been.
“To the brother in this video, I’m glad you made it out ok…and if your reading this or if anyone out there knows who this is please have them post a comment so we know what occurred at this fire, so that we can all learn from your experiance”.
As I stated in my earlier post, after watching this video I went back to my firehouse and with the crew went over VES, when where how, and then went out and did some practice size up’s thoughout our district.
FTM-PTB
Sorry Cap’…no offence meant with the “not the smartest thing ever” comment………thought I had qualified it by saying it was a reported entrapment. I’d have gone in that window too but I wouldn’t have bailed nearly as gracefully !!!!
Couple of great posts to end this topic. Glad you are ok Capt. Good video to get the “wheels of training” to move.
Stay safe all
I too do not like to second guess, because I was not there. Having read the explaination I too would have attempted a rescue. However, as a Captain your job is to do a size up. Did you notice the large amount of flame comming from the rear roof of the building. This would indicate that the upstairs was already too hot for entry. As the company officer you should have monitored from outside to keep you crew safe. As you were climbing the ladder the fire comming from the roof grew in size. Also the Captain was in the room for 15 seconds before the room lit up leading me to believe that the room was unlivable for an unprotected victim. Under those conditions turnout gear protects for at most 30 seconds. The captain was that far away from dying in a fire. Once again given the description you have to take a shot at it, but to attempt it, and not to enter. No one is questioning the dedication or compitance of the Captain. With that said it is this kind of poor risk management that is killing and hurting firefighters.
Haha, Capt im sure I dont have to tell you to just ignore some of the idiots on here. Id venture that most of them have never made a push down a hall way or had to mask up for there 2nd or 3rd fire in a tour over there already singed ears. Theres always gonna be the ones who do the job and the ones that read about it. For the ones that read about it, im glad your so defensive in your tactics and that you know everything about textbook firefighting, cause its becomming painfully obvious that many of you are gonna need all the help you can get to make sure “everybody goes home”
Hell of a job Capt, id work with you anytime
To “Kirk”
My squad covers a Battalion and a half. No fire factory here. I’m not trying to be a dick, there are thousands and thousands of more seasoned veterans in this world than me. Next FDIC, stop by IFD 7, I’ll let you read the logbook. “Unprotected” primary search means we operate independently of the hose crews. We do not wait for them, we don’t have to. We operate on the “floor above” with or without them, conditions permitting. They know their job and do it exceedingly well, but things can go wrong. “Always” and “Every” means we have SOPs and that search is my job. Period. No RIT assignments. No hose. No roof work. Chief wants us to “clear” the structure above all else. At IFD, the first truck also searches. I’ll let the chief of operations know about your concern for my safety. Thanks. Be safe. Good discussion. Great site.
Looking at the fire volume in the structure, and how the fire was moving, it was obvious that the room the FF entered was going to become fully involved within seconds. Unless the victim was at the base of the window sill, there was very little, if any chance of the person being viable. Our job does at times cause us to take chances, however they have to be calculated risks, with the chance of a viable rescue. To lose our life trying to save a victim who has no chance just doesn’t make sense. While our protective gear has advanced over the years, we still are not wearing gear rated to walk through fire. RFD
I’M NOT GOING TO APOLOGIZE OR KISS ANYBODY’S ASS. I STICK TO MY OPINION. I WILL SAY THANK YOU TO THE CAPTAIN, BECAUSE IT’S FEW TIMES THE GUILTY PARTY(HAHA), SPEAKS UP AND DEFENDS THEMSELF. ANYONE THAT READS THESE POSTS AND TAKES OFFENSE NEEDS HUG OR SOME PROZAC. THESE POSTS MAKE YOU THINK AND THAT IS HOW YOU LEARN! IF ANYONE WANTS TO CRY OVER SOMETHING ON HERE, THEN START YOUR OWN SITE FOR ENGINE GUYS, HOW ‘BOUT THIS:
let truck guys open building vent so it isnt too hot then enter spray.com
My apologies, the Captain, who entered the window, and having just read his post I suppose I may have done as he did. The video certainly makes it look as if that room was untenable.
Ten seconds from the time your feet entered the room until the room flashed out the window………You’re probably lucky you did not find a victim…..
To Matt, DavE, and Bob Smith thanks for the insight into your department and the brotherhood ya’ll showed.
To Captain Van Sant, thank you for the first hand story. Hope you’re doing alright. Strong work.
As for me…I would have done the same thing but it would have looked much more uncoordinated. There are no vacant structures and nothing is clear until we clear it.
When I first saw the video a few days ago I told my rookie something must’ve prevented the door from being shut. Glad to hear the explanation. Make sense.
I plan on using this video for our fire behavior, VES, and save yourself classes. Thanks to the site for having it available.
Videos and pictures never to the whole story. I am impressed with several things…
1. The calmness of the crew when presented with such a stressful situation.(garbage man doesn’t get excited when he sees a full can)
2. The coordination involved.
3. Ladder placement.
4. Training…training…training.
5. The fact Captain Van Sant went in first.
6. The balls he has to tell the whole story.
Funny how it all makes sense after we hear the whole story.
Don’t mistake good cinematography for good firefighting.
Crew first. Captain second.
Brotherhood above all.
Stay safe brothers.
WHATTTTT!! is this guy thinking. Fire has control of room and looks like it is through to roof. Any person in that room is past having an airway or lungs to be saved at this point. WOW.
WTF? ok this is a great video to show all the guys in the firehouse what not to do…
idk if it was just me are did the window fail do to the heat????? there was no need to ves that room if you have training about ves use it its not just climbing in to a room and do a fast search…. it all starts at size up and the officer did not to his size up. Risk and gain what am i risking and what am i going to be gaining can i get to the door are i just cant get into the room. reading smoke heavy black pusshing smoke with tail trail sings of flashover not a good time to enter but in his point hell no somke lets go but there was alot of fire.. come on guy use your training……
” let no man’s ghost come back to say ” my training let me down”
Thank you for the explaination Cap, as I said in my post we are assuming pretty much EVERYTHING when looking just at a video, your contribution and comments are truly invaluable, and for this I’m personally greatful.
As a 23 year veteran of the fire service, I’m sure you understand our concerns and observations, as I’m also sure you would have your own concerns if you were in our shoes.
Kudos to the membership of this site for locating the guy who is actually in the video also, that speaks volumes right there!
Stay safe all! I’m bringing you a “Sixer” next time I’m in Indy, Cap!
Capt Van Sant, thank you for posting up what really happened here. Every time I watch one of these videos I always wonder what we can’t see and what we don’t know. Long ago I found that there are millions of “expert” firefighters to second guess you after the fact online without ever knowing the whole story or even part of it. These folks wouldn’t say all this to your face but the anonymity of the internet brings them out of the textbook. Just watching the video I was on the fence as to whether I would enter or not… I wondered what the room looked like from the tip and whether you had a reported victim in there. It appeared to me that there was heavy fire in the room perhaps on the other side near the door. Then after reading your post and learning that the neighbor reported a victim in there and the fire was only rolling in from the hallway, I’m quite certain I would have bailed off in there too. I’m glad to know you made it out without getting hurt.
For the rest of y’all, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Y’all don’t even know the half of it but y’all talk as if you are omnipotent and have been crowned King Smoke Eater. A lively discussion based on the tiny bit of fact shown in the video is definitely worthwhile and can provide for a lot of thought on the matter especially if you can get background and perhaps some insider knowledge about the video. But to sit here and call names and summarily pass judgement without knowing a damn thing is out of line. Go back to jerking off to your textbooks. This site is usually above that.
these guys looked like they were doing there job and appeared to do it well. so to all the JAFOs(Just Another F#@king Observer) calling this crew stupid maybe your local police dept needs rookies
FTM-PTB
WOW, if you can honestly sit there and say that these guys were their jobs, and doing them well you might need to train up a little more before going out on another call. What these guys did is the super hero crap gets gets firefighters killed. So if you thing what they did was a good job maybe you might wanna become a cop.
This forum should not be about criticizing each other. This should be used as an opportunity for us to offer different perspectives. It should serve as a means to an end with the goal being to be better today than we were yesterday. Nothing is accomplished through name calling. This site offers a great opportunity for Firefighters around the country to share their experiences, and offer their perspectives. We do not have to agree on each situation, however we should be open to hearing different views and thoughts or ideas. If you gain just a little from the forum, it’s a little more than you knew before, if you gain nothing, you’ve lost nothing. It’s an extremely fine line between being aggressive while being safe. It’s not always possible to do both. So through size up and application of prior experience we must all try to be the best we can, while offering the public a legitimate chance at rescue, and our families the pleasure of our returning home after our shift. Be safe! RFD
I think we could teach this technique better if we ensured that members would do a simple size of four critical points. It’s a take off of the COAL WS WEALTH acronym. C- Construction, O- occupancy, L-life hazard and L – Location and extent. For me, these four points will cover what we should be assessing before we do anything on the fire ground, this would include doing VES. In this situation, is there any of these points that are critical to the VES decision? I think life hazard is. Specifically the survivablity of vicitms inside (no one could survive without SCBA and full PPE,which a civilian is unlikely to have on )and the firefighter going into the window ( getting caught in the room before a search, vicitm lift to the window sill and FF exit beofre the flashover occurs) . We have a good dicussion thread going on VES on the Common Sense Firefighting page of the Fire Engineering Community site if any one is interested. It’s near the end of the primary vnetilation discussion.Here’s the link http://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?groupUrl=commonsensefirefighting&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A90743
Stay Safe
Jim Mason
Chicago Fire Dept
After seeing that video I see the wisdom of NOT wearing
a hood. To my eye it looked like ‘superman dives into flames’. Dude get a handline OK? Also working in one of
the departments that time forgot we don’t set ground
ladders ‘ready to slide down’, again from the get go
where they thinking ‘when I get in trouble I can just
play shoots and ladders head first’. Too much balls
not enough brains makes a funeral cocktail.
Thanks for all the work that goes into VES.
Enjoy the job
Read all the above post’s.
1. The “dude” is a truckie..no hose no water
2. The way that ladder is positioned is the proper way to place a ladder when VES..ing.
Thanks to Capt. Van Sant for a thoughtful, measured post on this topic. You had every right to “go after†those that made unfair, insulting comments; however, you took the high road. Indy firefighters are a great, talented bunch, you are obviously another fine example. Your explanation shows that you have a good handle on VES and you brought-up several key points that must be considered when determining if VES is a viable tactical option. Thanks again, my further comments do not relate to your particular situation, but to the topic of VES in general.
I believe that there is a significant lack of understanding across the fire service as to what VES is, and what VES is not. VES is a tactic that should be employed following a narrow set of criteria. VES instruction, in many cases, misses some very key points. Specifically, the entry should not rapidly follow the ventilation. There is always a desire to get in and begin the search; however, VES requires members to resist the urge to “jump-in” and get started. What I’m getting at is that following the venting of the window, you should not be in a hurry to make rapid entry. It is very important to take some time to look, listen, observe and wait. Look for signs of life, listen for noises, cries or voices, observe conditions and wait to see what the results of your ventilation will be. The act of ventilating may, especially if the door to the room is open, cause a severe and rapid change in conditions. If you don’t take a bit of time to look, listen, observe and wait, your rapid entry may put you in a very dangerous situation.
Additionally, training should also stress the recognition of features, furniture and objects that will likely be found in rooms suitable for VES and rooms that are not suitable for VES. Bedrooms are the target, not living rooms, kitchens etc..
VES is designed to target bedrooms with a high degree of opportunity for occupancy. The size of the rooms should be small. The control of the room’s door is the first priority as that will be your only protection and may buy the necessary time to complete your rapid search. VES is not an entry point for an extended primary search. If members make entry and either can’t locate and close the door or they realize they are not in a bedroom, they should make a rapid exit.
Finally, an example from my own City that caused us to take another look at our VES training. Not long ago, an arsonist lit-up a taxpayer with a t-shirt shop and a TV repair shop on the 1st and apartments above. The still engine arrived with heavy fire in the t-shirt shop already auto-exposing the second floor apartments. While members were getting the first line on the fire, a second due company initiated a “VES” operation on the second floor. Here is where the above points come into play. The members of the search team were not senior men and their entry point brought them into the living room. These members did not seek and find the door and they began a right hand search. Further, they did not have a recognition that the furnishings and other items they were encountering were not what you would typically find in a bedroom. Finally, they did not retreat after they continued on what could only be considered an extended, open-area search of a living room, dining room and kitchen. Eventually, they encountered very high heat conditions as fire advanced toward them down a hallway from the bedrooms that had ignited from the auto-exposure described earlier. The story ended well, no severe injuries.
This incident brought a realization that we needed to revisit our VES training to ensure that all members understand VES requirements and a better understanding of what VES is and what VES is not.
AMEN 2DAWGS! STEPHEN MUST OF MISSED THE OTHER 90 POSTS. “SUPERMAN” ALREADY EXPLAINED THAT THERE WAS A BED THERE. I’VE FORGIVEN HIM. HEY REMEMBER WHEN WE ALL BITCHED AND WHINED ABOUT THE SACRAMENTO ROOF VIDEO? GO REDSKINS!
Hey I am truly and thoroughly impressed with the fact that a Capt. yeah a CAPTIAN!!! can throw a freakin ladder heads to rest of sittin back at you comfy training desk job worrying about ifsta and nfpa standards text book searches and cyin about not havin a hose line (to obviously slow us down) while searchin. the CAPT NEEDS TO BE AND SHOULD ALWAYS BE THE FIRST IN. thanks for your great example of what a officer REALLY IS
sorry heads up
To Capt Van Sant
Thank you for the size up points that you considered prior to entering the room. It IS hard to tell from the video what was going on and I want to appologize for any second guessing. You certainly had to do a justified and reasonable search of the room based on reliable information given to you by the civilians on the scene. I’m glad you wern’t injured. I also give you much credit for going into the room first as a leader on the fire ground.
Jim Mason
Chgo FD
Capt Van Sant is a well respected individual and he is a guy that I would follow in to battle based on reports by others, others people here know are excellent firemen, and officers. Myself, the Chief and this ‘other’ guy watched the video and we all said the same thing, that was the right move especially since it was thought to be occupied. This ‘other’ guy even heard about this video and I was able to get it up for him at work, surprisingly. It was a balls move and I am glad neither the Capt or the occupant were hurt. The citizens of Indy are damn lucky to have someone like that protecting them!
I would like to commend Captain Van Sant on leading by example as a front line fire officer should. Officers like him unfortunately are becoming harder to find in these days.
For those of you who aren’t up to speed on what VES is and how it’s supposed to be done, read this http://www.tacticalventilation.com/ves.pdf . Hopefully it will shed some light on the subject for those still in the dark.
Nice job Ricky! Thanks for providing the inside story for this video. This is a great example of looking for and understanding the details that can make such a difference during extreme situations.
I have had the great pleasure to met Capt Van Sant many years ago during different events and visits to Indy. His reputation is that of a true leader in the fire service. Experience counts for so much on this job, know probably more than ever.
Well done Rick.
I too appriciate the rebuttal from the Captain. However, There was a second option for him. It is clear from a low quality camera that fire had entered the room. Remember the signs of flashover? Rollover is one of them! The officer was in the room a very short amount of time. Very short. That room flashed in in seconds. With all due respect, CAPTAIN, it was the wrong call. You are not a fireman. You sir, are an officer, the one who should know better. The room flashed within 10 seconds of your entry. It was obvious it was going to flash before you entered, or at least it should have been obvious to a man of your experience. I don’t care if it’s tha fuckin Pope in that room, there was no way they were alive prior to your entry. Another point, what if you would have found a victim? what were you going to do, wiggle your nose and poof they would have been extracted? 10 seconds, Van Sant comes out nearly on fire himself; If the temps in the room were at 180 or above, the person is dead…
Van Sant may be an amazingly good officer, but unfortunatly he is human and made the wrong call. I hope Capt. Van Zant Sant can put his pride aside and make sure the younger and less experienced persons who work with him see another side of a good leader; Honesty and transparency. It would not have been cowardess to stay out of that room. It would have shown good judgement, what we must have from our on scene officers.
There are worse things then being called an idiot or cowardess.
It was not a job well done. The desire, while noble, was misplaced. Sorry to be so blunt, but we can’t let the truth of this situation be lost because we don’t want to hurt someones feelings. This isn’t a matter of being a good firefighter or not. If you make many fires, mistakes are going to be made. It happens to us all. Thankfully, this mistake didn’t cost us a good man.
BTW, this fire geek has twenty years on the job so far, at busy stations, fighting fire and all that.
Awesome Job Capt- If there was a little kid on that bed, you would of had em out out in 30 secs- Balls of steel!- Again great Job!
Lt Serge B.
Ret-FDNY
1985-2005
Get off topic a little how does your truck company perform VES and fires?
At work in Baltimore we operate in four man truck companies. On a structure fire the typical riding positions for the first due truck company are for the officer to force the front door for the engine and search the first floor, the right stepman to throw a 35 with the left step or tiller man to the 3rd floor and ves, the left step then throws a 24 and ves the second floor while the driver ladders the roof with the aerial and performs vertical ventilation. Second due Truck secures the utilities, searches the basement and performs VES to the rear via ground ladders. So you can see we place a great deal of emphasis on VES and operating in one man teams. For the three story row homes that make up the majority of the service in this city it works well. Some houses barely have a 24in wide stair well, and when you have two aggressive engine companies (at least we run 5 engines, 1 as the rit) racing up the steps the last thing we need is another four guys blocking the stairwell. I find from riding the truck that if your on your game and have a good partner by throwing ground ladders and entering through the windows, you can beat the engine up the stairs easily. Now granted on other type structures we modify our assignments, the left step might dump a few more ladders on a framer but I am a huge fan of VES and capt I think you did a hell of a job.
In case I wasn’t clear BCFD operates 6 straight bodied trucks and 13 tillers. The Left step and the tillerman are the same person. The left step rounding out the four man crew on straight trucks. The tillerman the fourth man on tillers…
Seems like the key issue here was that he was unable to close the door.
When he entered, the fire was in the hallway, not the room. If there was no junk in the way, he would have been able to close the door and successfully complete the search.
Walker is right- there was a short amount of time. But there was enough time to enter, close the door (had it been possible to do so), and search the room.
If I was told there was someone inside, and I knew I had enough time to enter the room and close the door, I would have done the same thing.
Capt.,
Nice to see your OK. Really ballsy move. I was guessing this wasnt your first rodeo from the very calm folks in the video, and your response answered that and so many other questions. Tip of the lid by the way to the window man for being on his toes and gettin the f@#k outta the way!
Thank God there are still members who operate with the same principles in mind. To all of the CCFFNCMF’S (clipboard carrying, fire fearing, non combative, mother f&*%^$) out there bashing every guy who seriously believes in FIRE FIGHTING, I hear there’s a national shortage on medics in this country. Maybe you should be thinking “career change”…
In my 21 years, VES has proven its worth to me. Every job is different. It never ceases to amaze me how many fire experts will tell you when a room or building is tenable or what we should or should not be doing. Funny these guys always seem to have some type of reason or excuse to not go in.
Stop bashing and posting negative comments if you dont know the whole story. Even though I felt good about my crews knowledge and capabilities w/ VES, after watching this video, we will be throwing ladders again today. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I’m surprised to see so many continually question a veteran Capt’s assessment and actions after a detailed explanation. At first glance the video looks like overly aggressive VES, but as was detailed we weren’t there. This experienced firefighter (Capt) was at the top of the ladder, assessed the conditions and felt he could make the door and close it. The benefit was this may have been where the reported victim was. Had the door been able to be closed, it would have been a textbook VES op, with conditions improving quickly. If the victim had been found there, it also would have been textbook. But instead things didn’t go 100% and condition rapidly deteriorated and the Capt followed his training and experience and bailed out. Instead of using this video to show what not to do, we should use this to show what can go wrong and why training must take precedence over recliner time. While I had doubts at the first viewing, unless you were at the tip of the ladder, you’ll never know. I for one would take the word of an experienced veteran firefighter and say this was good work.
After looking at it several times..over a long period.. hint thats much longer then Capt. Van Sant had to make HIS decision to go or no go. The ONLY area I can see room for possible improvement is the early taking of the glass with the ladder. We know the longer the vent is in place the faster the fire will be coming towards it. Looks like about 20 +/- seconds of vented fire before Capt. gets into the window. That 20 sec. may have given him the time to get that door closed.
So to all the CCFFNCMF’S (like that) out there.. hey, this is how it works.. and this thread is solidify’s the fact that we are putting on too many band aids and not enough Firefighting..
Just an observation, be safe brothers. And happy thanksgiving.
Textbook Firefighter discussion! Swings WAY to the left then back WAY to the right. Good material for station discussions and, as a Training Lieutenant (fresh from 10 years as the officer on a BUSY Engine company), good training material as well.
Firefighters are the best armchair quarterbacks in the world and, never short on opinions. Keep talking guys. Let’s try to figure out why, when our working structure fires have drastically declined over the last 20 years, why we are still killing as many Firefighters as we were back then?
Believe me, I have been called too aggressive, yelled at by Chief Officers when we stayed on a roof too long, pushed a 2 1/2″ down a chimney of a hallway while two little girls were carried out behind my crew, and taken a big line into a 3rd floor apartment attic only to cuss when Command ORDERED us out! I know what aggressive is all about. Been there done that and will do it again if the situation calls for it but, I won’t take unnecessary chances with my crew anymore for the sake of being able to say we did or to be able to beat my chest in some bar bragging about how much of a beating we took. I won’t kill myself OR MY CREW for a far fetched “What If”.
Do we need to take an industry wide look at how we do business? Are we willing to kill ourselves to keep whatever (fantasy) image we have of ourselves in place?
Were we all neglected little boys (no offense girls) who get our attention now as adults by doing things the “traditional way” while killing ourselves at the same time? Are we too stubborn (or ignorant) to at least consider changing? If the answer is YES, then keep on keepin’ on boys, we don’t want the FF Memorial at the Academy to have a low number year now do we!
PS: Sounds like the Capt. did exactly what I would have done given the same conditions. Nice job and thanks for letting us all know what was really going on!
Okay, its called risk vs, benefit , If there was an entrapment, the victim would be fried chicken. So all I gotta say is good going on almost killin yourself for fried chicken, Tommy Tuff Nuts!
I’ll say this. I hope that all of you posting on this topic are also holding this discussion with your crew at the firehouse. Hopefully you and your crew can learn from it.
Congrats to Cap Van Sant on successfully bailing out of the window as conditions became untennable. Why are people still questioning the decisions made by a man, that described in great detail, the reason for his actions. What some view as a huge mistake, others feel was an acceptable move. Who is to say? I am sure FOX news or CNN is looking for analysts, why don’t some of you apply your expertise in that field. All of the negative comments about what he should or should not have done,need to be left to yourselves. I am sure every fire that each one of you go on, runs perfectly. No one has ever made a bad decision, or had things go bad, in the heat of the moment. The only person who should be criticizing Cap Van Sant is himself, or his BC,or the IC at this particular incident. They would have been the only ones to have seen the incident as a whole, not just a 2 dimensional view from a camera. Some of you seem to be experts after a few short minutes of video. Cap Van Sant made a decision to take action in a split second. All the discussion about; he should have done a size up, he should have read conditions better, he should have known, no one could survive that, are for the birds. Who has time to analyze in great detail what they are gonna do when shit is hitting the fan right in front of you. You do a quick size up and make decisions based on training and experience from past incidents. The Cap obviously did this, and went on to do what we saw in the video. Rather than standing around watching, he took action. You never make mistakes if you are watcher. Cap Van Sant is a man of action. FF’s who take action do all they can to make a bad situation better, but sometimes, during the action, things don’t go according to the text books. I’ll take action over watching(and criticizing)any day. As for all you experts who feel actions like this are why we kill 100 FF’s a year; get a life. Half of the FF’s we kill each year are a result of heart attacks. Our own laziness and poor lifestyle kill half of us. Another larger portion is due to vehicle accidents responding to incidents. So buckle up and slow down! Yes a percentage of us do die in fires each year. Firefighting is an inherently dangerous profession, remember? We do everything we can to go home at the end of our shift, and things still go wrong. I seriously doubt anyone, including Cap Van Sant, was thinking this will be a good fire to dive in and get my gear all burned up. He took a risk and is still here with us today, thankfully. As I said to the brothers in Sacramento a few months ago, I’m glad you are still with us Cap!
We all better hope that there are Firemen like Van Sant responding when it is our 4 year old daughter trapped in that room.
Spare me the pussifying of the Fire service with your acronyms and risk vs. gain slogans. These decisions are made on the fly through experience,training and courage.
There are many people alive today because some Firemen pushed the safety envelope. Rescues have been made under conditions that would surely contradict all of these rsik analysis flow charts and catch phrases.
Also spare me the line of duty death rhetoric, look at the numbers we are not dying in large numbers from performing primary searches.
We are mostly dying from driving like dumb asses and not staying physically fit. Sorry No Glory in these facts!
Use the risk vs.gain process next time you cross the doughnut box, recliner or red light at an intersection!
Use your experience,training and courage next time you are performing a primary search!
Good Job Capt. Van Sant
Shawn Steinert
Orlando Fire
Gents,
This is a training site, there is value in discussing these topics. However, VES is one of the most dangerous tactical operations on the fireground. Capt. Van Sant is obviously a seasoned, experienced officer who has performed VES many times. Let us not assume that everyone that reads this information has the same level of experience, knowledge, training and courage of the good Captain. Herein lies the danger, junior, inexperienced and less knowledgeable firefighters need to get accurate, factual information on topics such as VES. The outcome of the VES shown and explained here would likely have been different if not for the level of expertise possessed by Capt. Van Sant.
Capt, thank you for standing up for your actions and the first hand information, it is my opinion that any time something is posted on the World Wide Web you better be ready for criticism rather it is right or wrong. Like I said before I only hope people can read through the criticism and learn something that may save someone some day.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JIMM, PLEASE POST SOMETHING ELSE!
The ff at the other window didnt go in. Was that room checked already?
Rick- nice work. VES is one of the gutsiest things done on the fireground. If there was a chance, you gave it.
I would venture the guess that someone chastising your decision has never been in that position, otherwise they would have the wisdom to know better than to question a decision with that kind of impact. Don’t sweat the BS.
Take care and stay safe-
Walt
Officer’s are supposed to supervise. This looked like headhunting to me. The second guy almost climbed on the Capt. And that tool on your waist will do you no good when you can’t get it out in a shitty situation. Anyway its the move you made, ballsy I don’t know. Anyone fully encapsulated would have made that room. You were in that room for about 6 seconds before it flashed. If the second guy on the ladder made it in the room you would not have made it out. Remember first guy in off the ladder will be the last one out. And I’ve been in this situation before.
Well Rick I was told about the comments about the fire you had and I couldn’t believe some of things I heard. So I had to look for myself. DAM, we are in trouble as a whole in the fire service. I understand now why the attorneys and lawyers run the fire service because we sound like a bunch of women on our periods. Jesus Christ you did your job!!! Hell you didn’t just do it, you DEFINED it!!!! I know your men got your back and you got theirs!! I can’t beleive our own Brothers of this fire service is actually calling you out on what you did. It amazing how everyone had a question on what you did wrong. Where was the officer? Was the ICS in place? Where was the engine company with the hose line? In Florida they would have said where is the 2 out (2 in 2 out rule). What I saw was a fireman doing what he is SUPPOSED TO BE DOING!!!!! AGGRESSIVE, DISCIPLINED, CONFINDENT, and willing to STAND UP up for YOURSELF!!! We truly have become SOFT in this day and age. Oh yeah and for the sensitve ones out there sorry for hurting your feelings. Yeah right, check your feelings at the door!!! If you had to answer all of the above questions while on that scene and there was a victim then everyone would have said you are a COWARD and not WORTHY!!! Not to mention when you defended your actions it became clear that there was more to the video than what all the of the analysist knew. Have we become so safe and pussified that we are not able to do the job that we swore to do. Scenes always have those situations that a desicion needs to be made and hopefully with the best intrest of where the victim is or could be. Go educate yourself and get your face out of the fridge!!
Thanks Rick,
Ken Ireland
Orlando Fire
Ken & Walt-
Not much more I can add that you guys havent said…..
Cat Van Sant……… dam fine work… When I get up to Indy, I would love to come by a visit, maybe have ya come down for a class….I am about an hour south of ya in S.E. Indiana near the casinos…
Stay Safe….
Capt. Van Sant,
I stand correcteed. After watching the video again and reading YOUR side of what actually happened, I learned two lessons. 1)You don’t know unless you were the one peering into that window what action to take; and 2)Although caught on video, things aren’t always as they seem. It’s easy to pick apart someone’s decision sitting infront of the computer.
I wish to commend you on a job well done. I know that if the conditions were as they APPEARED in the video, you would’ve most likely made a different decision based on what you were seeing.
Given the fact that you never lost sight of the entry/exit, had a hand tool but know that a victim and a pile of clothes on the floor feel the same with a tool and choose to use human touch for search speaks volumes for your decision making ability and experience level.
It goes without saying that nobody (including myself) needs to advise you of the principals of fire behavior, signs of an empending flashover, etc. You seem to have that comcept grasped among others already.
Excelent exit technique bye-the-way. My company has discussed the method you used for a hasty exit before and we’re going out to practice it as soon as I’m done here.
Thanks for the explination AND clarifiaction so we can use this as a learning tool.
Hey dumbasses check your stats on the LODD stuff. The majority of these involve guys dieing due to heart problems, MVCs, or training accidents. Next is probably guys doing inside searches getting away the hose line and getting disoriented.
Outside VES, when done properly like the video shows, is relatively safe. You are usually not very far from your primary entrance/egress point, have a back-up man at top of ladder for further orientation to window, if you can shut the door, conditions should improve for you and any occupants, allowing you to get an effective search done quickly.
For you LODD researchers, check and see how many deaths are attributed to doing proper VES. It’s time you guys got off your asses, put down the X-Box controllers, take a class or 2. Or better yet get out of the station and do some training.
It’s time to end this discussion. We have beaten this horse to death. Over and over again we have shown our asses with rude comments and innuendos. We just don’t seem to get it. It’s sad but, the word “brotherhood” doesn’t seem to mean much anymore. Easy to be a tough guy and insult others sitting behind the computer. Grow up boys!
First off a little info on Capt Van Sant
He is a medal of Valor recipient for making another gutsy grab while off duty and helped save the lives of three women in a sinking car. So I am thinking this guy has made the risk vs benefit decision before. So enough of that.
Next, as Art Zern has said, this is a training site.If we are still going to complain about the decision to go or not go we aren’t accomplishing anything. So lets take this to the next level and learn some things here instead of slamming each others ego, bravado or what ever you’d like to call it. If you have experiences with VES positive or negative give them and let others learn from US. We may pick something up that we didn’t know and move from there saving the butts of our Brothers and civilians alike.
I am guilty of questioning what was going on, see the post on Nov 21 at 1125, right before the Capt. but only because I have been faced with that situation before. I am not going to blow smoke up someones ass or claim to be a fire god. I experienced it only once but I understand it is a shit and get situation. I will go over my experience below so others can learn.
My VES experience that didn’t have a good outcome.
My engine company was dispatched for Auto aid (2nd engine in) to a 2 story Multi Family. Enroute companies were updated by PD they had heavy fire on the 2nd floor showing from 1 apartment with the Father lying on the ground from jumping. The initial company was arrived a minute or so ahead of us and reported multiple people trapped, by info received from the dad, in the apartment. The Quint was calling for a ladder to access the balcony and they also had numerous rescues from the roof on the opposite side. I told my Lt I was bringing them the ladder to gain entry when they stated they needed help with a search. I told a Sector officer to let my Lt know I would not be returning to the company (who was rescuing the people from the roof) and marrying up with the Quint crew. We had a visual with the TIC of 1 adult victim at the entrance to the bedroom and 1 quint FF made that grab. We made the bedroom with heavy smoke conditions, got the door closed and “cleared” the room. I blew the search, I missed the baby covered in blankets in the corner of the room next to the mattress on the floor. A company doing a true primary actually found the baby. In all 4 people died at the fire, that includes the father.
After all was said and done there was nothing that could have been done for these people, the burns alone would have killed them but it was an experience that went bad when the search was blown.
This was a few years ago so take it for what its worth.
Lessons learned by me from this fire:
-You are either a Truck or an Engine you can’t be both
-No matter how well you train things go bad
-Knowing building construction is a huge factor in the survival of US and the occupants
There are more but hopes this helps.
Stay Safe
I know I’m number eleventy million to say this but “Good work and damn glad your ok”! If my little girls had been in that room at least they would have had a chance. I really like the last dozen or so comments on taking care of ourselves. Get out of the f*%@ing recliner or off the keyboard bashing other brohters and hit the gym. Do some hard ass work in your gear and airpack. DO SOMETHING!!! We all don’t run 20-25 runs a shift so there is plenty of down time to keep up your skills and get yourself and your crew into good fighting shape. DO WORK!!!
Danny
Gents,
I hate to get all idealistic on you, but maybe this will help. As a Battalion Chief, I have a long-standing philosophy regarding the operations of the first due companies, I believe that the initial companies can do no wrong. In other words, I don’t second guess their actions based on what I see when I arrive. I trust that they made the best decision with the information available to them at the time. As we all know, decisions on the fireground are often life and death, always time sensitive and have to be made with little information. My only choice is to quickly evaluate the current situation status and determine if we are winning or losing and if changes need to be made based on the up to the minute information.
I use the same outlook when viewing videos that I was not involved in at the time and especially when I have no direct knowledge of the situation. I have a particular interest in this type of situation and I understand (although not exactly) what Capt. Van Sant must have been feeling while being “ripped†by anonymous bloggers who had no involvement in the fire on the tape and no direct knowledge of the situation. In the mid 90â€s, I was involved in a similar situation where a video of a fire I was operating at was circulated around. For years, the wrong information was passed around as this tape was used in countless fire service classes. You may have seen it; it was a grocery store fire with an eventual collapse of a very large bowstring truss roof. While taking a break during the fire, a reporter who had been told that the crews that I was responsible for had nearly been injured or killed, asked about our thoughts on this Christmas Eve in temperatures of –20 degrees. I said that I was looking forward to seeing my kids and going home for Christmas in the morning. We were not aware that there was a crew operating on the other side of the building that did actually make a narrow escape as the roof collapsed. In any case, my crew was identified for years as the crew that had the near miss. I can’t tell you how many times I was asked questions, or had to hear from people that were at classes that my crew members had unnecessarily placed themselves in peril by operating on a bow-string truss roof that was clearly (on the tape) well involved.
The truth was that as the officer on the third arriving truck, I asked upon arrival what type of roof the store had. As I was given our assignment by the I.C., I was told that the store had a bowstring truss roof and that it was a “write-off’ and no one was to go onto the roof. The plan was to begin massive trench cutting operations on the connected buildings in an effort to \ save the two connected buildings (which we did). We never stepped foot on that roof; however, we had to answer the questions for years and I took it very personally.
Capt. Van Sant was “lucky†to have the opportunity to address the issue on this site. As I said earlier, he was much more measured and kinder in his response than I would have been. The bad news is, he will not have the chance to address the untold numbers of uninformed firefighters across the country and beyond who will jump to conclusions, make unfair criticism and spread the wrong message. PLEASE, do Capt Van Sant and all of us really a solid on this, if you hear the wrong story, set it straight, tell your crews the truth and do what you can to protect the reputation of one of our own who clearly deserves our gratitude as a great example of what it means to be an American Firefighter.
Very nicely said Chief!
Deep breath everyone.
Train, Listen, Look, Live!
Just a few questions that i haven’t seen answered here yet, unless i missed them somewhere.
Was there a victim(s) in the house or room?
If so,what is their condition right now? alive and well ( hopefully), or are they in the burn center with disfiguring injuries?
What happened in the adjacent room? It appears that the fir increased in that room as well. Was this one large room or were they connected somehow?
Capt ,God bless that you got out alive. I have seen the video many times. I noticed little communication with the OVM on the A/D side .Did that lack of communication
make the conditions worse.Was that one whole room or was the room divided? I think a better size up of the room (pre flasover)would save alot risk vs gain. Again Thank god you made out live.
Was the victim(s) in that other room?
Was there a successful rescue from there instead?
Did the firefighters entering (or at least appearing to) that room have to bail out as well?
If anyone has answers, please post them.
WOW…. there is no way that anyone could survive in that room. why enter?? that looks more like a recovery
Capt.Van Sant. I am glad to see there are still some FIREMEN left in the world. I salute your actions. I only saw this video today and didn’t bother to read all of the expert opinions. Your comments and actions remind me of the very core values on which the fire service was established and the comments of some on this web site remind me of why this job is going down the tubes. If you would not have done what the captain did then it’s time to rethink why you are doing this job.
I don’t know the guy in the video, and I don’t care who rides BUSY companies. I have seen poor firefighters on busy rides and great ones who sleep all night. A busy company doesn’t make you an expert…It means, for most of you, you run more medical calls so put away the BS.
While you have to give a guy a slap on the back for giving it the old college try, unfortunatly if he would do it again (I think 100 times given the same situation), he will be dead before we know it. And to the guy who said if that was my kid in that room…I am sure Capt. Van Sant has kids too. So know you have a dead daughter and they have a dead dad.
This site was to be about training. From the mess written above I don’t think I learned a thing…other than a group of people were critical of the video, and then reversed course when they saw who it was. Even though this guy may be an expert he is human. He made an attempt to save the unsavable (like many of us would do) and he got lucky. I would have felt better hearing the Captain just say that, “I was over agressive, pushed the envelope and almost lost.”; now every Tom, Dick, and Harry will think this action, in this condition will get him a medal. I certainly don’t think less of the guy for giving it a try, the ultimate question is in hind sight did he (or anyone else there) learn anything from it? That is what I would like to know.
To Capt.Van Sant – you can’t win on these forums. Stay safe and don’t lose any sleep over it!
capt,
i will like to ask some Q and A’s about the video i was reading your comments before looking at the video and everything that you say makes me think. yea i was not there i have not bin in your shoes and like you say i just must be a “textbook geek” saying that the risk vs gain had alot to play with this video you risked alot to get into the room and get out i see that it took you 20sec to search the room and a small closet. the room looked like it had pre flashover all over it
how long was the fire going on for? was the home working are just 2nd floor and the roof?
I see that you say that “when we vent the window with the ladder” the window failed do to heat that what it looks like. and you say that the room was “tenable” for you and a victim with in the time you enter. on the video it was 1min 26sec that you got in and you jumping out was 1min 47sec that’s like 20sec you tryed to close the door search the room and a small closet with in that time? iam not saying that you do not have the time to do it. i see that your a capt and a 23 year vet out of your dept and why will someome call you a “coward” if you got to the top of the ladder and did not go in? it just you looking out for #1 that what a alot of the “textbook geeks” will say but it you have the TRAiNING they tell you WHO is #1 you are and if the room is lost and everything in it is too. if i was placed in the exact same conditions that you have faced and i was in your shose i will use my 23years in the dept and say i cant risk alot of something that’s lost thats for the video vententersearch and this video will be used in my dept training for other firefighters to see what to risk…
A comment to the webmaster:
I bet a lot of people have a lot of good comments on this post. But it’s impossible to sort through all of the trash comments. Consider a digg style comment rating system. It would be nice to be able to just look at the good stuff.
And a comment about VES in general from watching this vid. It is always a good idea to stop for a second or two and watch fire activity AFTER opening a doorway or in this case window and BEFORE entering. So the firefighter can see the impact the new opening has on the fire. So rather than taking the window with the ladder, consider leaving the window intact and taking it with a tool. It appears in the video that the glow in the room gets progressively brighter from the point that window is taken—taking the window after climbing the ladder could have earned the searcher a few more precious seconds of working time… any thoughts (from actual fire fighters)?
Your 23 years Capt. should have made you realize that even if the fire was “In the Hallway”, it was still to much heat for a survivor. The thermals must have been high with that much glow off the fire. Just because the first wasent visable, the heat was present. 23 years in the Indy FD, with alot of fires under your belt, I would have expected more. Further more if rescue was such a possablility what was with the sluggish pace to the building. Maybe we do things quicker here, but our guys have more pep in their step on much less of a fire. Ohe yeah, one more thing. “The excitment in the dispatchers voice.” Since when are we going to listen to someone sitting behind a computer????? Make you own observations and go from there.
Thank god for training
Capt. Van Sant,
Great job and obviously you train like your life depends on it, because it does. I’m afraid that many of the brothers that have posted would not have faired near as well. Be Safe….
DMAN72…Do you accually work on a truck? Oh and take off the all capital letters when you type, makes you look like a window licker….
Very noble attempt by the Captain… but as was previously stated, a misplaced effort… VES is an important, agressive tactic in the fire service… but the room the Captain entered did not qualify… the room flashed over literally seconds after he entered… he came out almost literally on fire… I too work at a busy house in a large, agressive midwestern department… but don’t see the sense in dying for an already well-crispened corpse, which is exactly what you would have found in that room… I could maybe see a quick sweep of the bed from the window sill, but that’s about it… some may see “risk vs. benefit” stuff as the “pussy-ing” of the fire service, as one on here said… but thinking for a split second before we act is never a bad idea… I’m just glad the Captain is ok… I certainly salute his agressiveness, but I think it went just a wee-bit too far…
Capt. Van Sant,
I believe I can speak for all of us when I say we’re glad you’re alright! Those were extremely dangerous fire conditions!
I am not going to make any comment on this particular structure fire because “I WASN”T THERE”! I did however read your post and appreciate your honest and open response. As others have stated each incident presents a different set of circumstances and how we respond to those circumstances will come down to a strong command presence, training and past practice. Instead of so many of us taking the time to bash a brother firefighter, we should be using this as an educational experience.
Remember, fires like these (THANK GOD) are low-frequency, high-risk incidents. This is the stuff that we need to be training on. These are the kind of incidents that are killing us. Watch the video again and ask yourself “How many classes could you teach?”. I could probably come up with a dozen classes easily just off this one fire. Bldg. const., fire behavior, search and rescue, RIT, firefighter bail-out, EMS (thermal injuries), PPE, hoseline advancement, ladder placement, etc.
Fellow firefighters, get out there and train as if you life depends on it. Because if we don’t then all those whom have gone before us we do a terrible injustice!
And lastly Capt. Van Zant, I would like to buy you a beer next time I’m in Indy! Right, wrong, indifferent
23 yrs on the job and still picking it up and putting it down. Let me know what house you’re at and I’ll give ya a call.
Capt. JJ
EFD
I think everyone has missed something here. The man said he could not get the door closed. He went in the window. He went straight for the door. It wouldn’t F—ING CLOSE. He continued to search as he made his way BACK to window. As you all should know, in VES getting the door shut is very big item. Think about this, what if the door to the room had been removed by the homeowner for some reason? In the area I respond in I have been on several medical calls where doors have been removed from bedroom entrances for various reasons(damaged during domestics, parents wanting to see what their kids are doing, etc.). So as you sit here and tell us all how great you are, or that IFSTA and NFPA say we do it a certain way ask yourself this one question. Would I have wanted him to go in if that was possibly my wife, my mother, my child, or even me?
Capt. I was not there but I listened to your story. As you have told the story, I would have done the same thing. the only difference would be that I probably would have missed the ladder on the way out.
BE SAFE AND HAVE A WONDERFUL HOLIDAY.
Sorry I realized after I posted I had not completed the thought about a non-existent door. My point with that was he would have had the same result if when he got to the doorway, the door wasn’t there. If the door had been able to be shut, we probably would not be having this discussion. Again, as you are judging the captain though remember he did try to shut the door and the fact that he was not able to do that was the one thing that threw a kink in the whole program.
1:31 INTO THE VIDEO HE’S IN THE ROOM, 1:40 FLAMES ARE BLOWING OUT THAT ROOMS WINDOW! THANK GOOD THE CAPTAIN IS STILL ALIVE.
Captain no one challanges you bravery or training. I have learned from my bad choices. You were in the room for 11 SECONDS! IF you found a fifty pound child by the door you may not have made it out. IF I WAS THERE AS YOU WERE I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING WILL PEOPLE INSIDE. With that said looking back it may not have been the best choice.IM glade your are safe and would love to WORK FOR YOU.Fire behavior is always changing and we can learn from your case.
I have been talking about this video all week and I have read about half of the comments about this. I kinda thought about talking bad about some brothers and discussing the actually great outside work initially; then I stopped myself. What this boils down to is how and why we do the job we do. We argue back and forth about bad call, not aggressive enough, look at the conditions of the structure and on and on. Most of us probably got started in this job to help people, then got bitten by the fire bug which made us supermen. We have different philosphies of IC, 2 in/2 out, good VES and what makes or brakes a good firefighter. We need to look at this from outside our sandbox. What were we there for, how are my duties going to send me, my crew and the public home to someone waiting, do I understand what is or has happened and will I really make a difference at work today and finally what can I teach to someone else?
At least the capt. can sleep at night knowing he did all he could.
i read the report from the captain. I watched the video several times. i read only as much as i could of the other comments because most of them make me want to swallow my own puke before read more, but captain…..come on. you searched that whole room in 7 seconds, including the closet and tried to close the door? i’m pretty stupid, but that makes me look like a genius. sorry!
Take what you want from this video and discussion.
If you need to show your FD this video and condemn the Capt. and his actions based on what you see, fine. At least do it constructively, making people understand the dangers and how important reading the situation is.
Or take the video show it and ensure your troops understand the dangers, the benefits and the need for “down pat” training, like seems to have been displayed in the video. Even those of us who do not condemn the actions shown, can use the video to have a decent discussion about reading the conditions, from what you see, to what is felt and the overall picture of the incident.
Why the continued bashing? Some Brotherhood we are, or maybe we’re just dysfunctional like all families. But until you’re at the top of the ladder, facing the conditions, feeling the heat (or lack of), thinking of a reported victim and seeing the doorway that in your experience and training you believe you can make, you should take a breath and learn whatever lesson you need.
The Capt. gave his CV, how about some of those who question his actions?
Searching this room would have been pretty easy if it was a normal sized bedroom, seemed to have plenty of light.
As for the nay sayers that this was too dangerous and there was no possible survivors in that room, there have been numerous fires where someone had that thought, and someone doing their job pulled a victim out that survived. Maybe no one would have survived, maybe they would have, the only way to no for certain is to get in quickly and do the job you signed on to do. The only way do do this job is to train and be aggressive so you can make the most impact and still be able to go home in the morning.
Thanks to the people for breaking down the LODD stats, I’m sure that was new information to some people.
Capt. Good Job!
If someone was trapped in the room then why did the truckie not get in a hurry with the ladder? There was no rush except to get in there and char your gear. We all know it looks “cool” and “awesome” to blacken your helmet and coat, thats all this was about. A room search and closet search in less than 20 seconds, O’ and there was a bed that I knew was right under the window that’s why I didn’t sound the floor, just plopped right in. Come on just admit it, it was about getting in the sh!& and try’n to look tuff for some young bucks. When people are in there, most firefighters are rushing aroung to get the job done, the only rushing was getting out of the window. We all like to bury up and get some, but to endanger the lives of your brothers! This fire was getting it and it was already in the room, You can justify yourself all day long, thats cool, but come on it was about gettin in there and be’n macho. I don’t want to seem to bash ya brother, just admit it was about gett’n some, Hopefully everyone on here is aggresive and likes to bury up, but sometimes you gotta say NO. You gotta, Read the smoke, Read the building and think, Am I going to hurt any of my brothers?
Joe Jack
I’m fairly new to the fire service. This is only my second year with my company. I just wanted to write this to thank the captain for his post and giving me a true example of what I should aspire to be, and the example of a fireman that I hope one day I become. Thank you sir for all you have done. God Bless.
Well I am commenting on some thing for the second time. I have seen this video for a while now and others and wondered what caused the firefighter to make the decisions he made.I am greatful that Van Sant responded thans! I to work for a busy dept in a big city and I knew there was more to the story because in real life unlike class and live burn training “Everything is a Pain in the Ass.”
You know guys, you all aspire to be the best firefighter there is but to be a well trained firemen you must know to pay a watchful eye to ALL of your surroundings! No one took notice to the axe on his waiststrap, or the fact that there was only one apparatus visible, or the fact that the room wasn’t even on fire. Don’t ridicule this captain for only doing what needed to be done without hearing everything from the only guy in that room. We all need to remember to stay vigilate. It does not make you an idiot for only doing what had to be done. One life saved is still a life saved. He may not have made a grab, but after that VES he knew there was no life to save in there. And all i have to say is job well done brother! Stay safe brothers.EGH