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Ok so it would be proactive for the company to provide the “special key” to towns and cities where these have been installed. LEts be proactive here.
What are the 14 states they have these in? Has any department had the Fire Marshalll ban or restrict these due to code? Our department has banned the use of home security bars unless it is permitted and checked by our fire code enforcement folks. Couldn’t departments due similar things with these?
I agree, lets be proactive instead of reactive.
Stay safe.
~Egan
I am from Europe and i have never seen any arrangement like this. I wouldn’t even try to do an interior attack in these vacant buildings unless there’s an indication there may be people inside (i.e. a door is open).
This is a deathtrap and i am not going to hospital (or worse) to save a vacant building, that’s definitely not worth it.
P.S. this is a great site to see how you lot go about doing the job we all love!
Here’s an idea. To hell with bothering with a building secured by this Deathtrap Property System. Like mentioned above, the only reason it would be worth the trouble and/or worth the risk of getting someone hurt is if there was obvious proof of occupancy. This type of system should work like a knox box system.
Property owners wishing to install this system should be required to notify the proper permitting authority which should in turn notify local fire departments. A key and/or tools need to be provided at the property owners expense to the first due responding station that the property is closest to, and that should be standard everywhere, short of having the damn system banned out right.
NJ (NEWARK) has a bunch of county owned abandoned buildings with these; I have only looked them over briefly once never under fire condition. Thank you for your hard work on this, will make a great rainy day company drill..
I work with VPS and we offer workshops and free DVDs to fire departments where we install our equipment. Our instruction explains how firefighters can get in and everything else that they need.
Please call our HQ at 1-800-918-9100 and ask for Celia. Once she knows that you are with a fire department, she can arrange for you to receive our materials.
Regards,
Dan Sandweiss
dan.sandweiss@vpsecurity.com
One more thing about the VPS DVD for fire fighters. It was produced by the Chicago Fire Dept. We also provide samples of our product to credentialed fire fighters so that they may practice on it.
i would breach the wall first before messing with those.some houses near me are vinyl siding on foam board. no plywood sheathing.
This has been addressed here in NYC. I will forward the pdf to the website to see if they are interested in posting it. Basically the way to defeat them is with a metal cut-off blade attacking the metal reinforcement bars, or with dikes or bolt cutters. Slow and steady is the way to go! These can also be found in OCCUPIED BUILDINGS, so do not assume that its vacant till its confirmed!
Dan
Thanks for posting. Can you advise what states you have these or are going to be installing these in?
Stay safe
~Egan
so if there was medium to light smoke showing from one of the openings signifing a small fire, 1 or maybe 2 room and contents fires going, are you trying to tell me since its vacant, youre just going to stand there and wait till it burns through the roof to fight it cause theres no life risk? i agree with risk vs gain. but dont forget were also contracted to save…property. we recently had a house that was going to be used for live burns vandalized and set on fire by a couple of kids, it was vacant and whatnot, but we still had to put water on it to look good for john q. public. what would people say if they saw the FD just standing around? good luck gettin people at your bingos, carnivals, and raffles.
119;
Erring to the side of caution “may” be the best option “sometimes”. We ALWAYS bring the life hazard with us to every incident. My belief is that the brothers will do everything possible to mitigate the reason we were called there. Finding a smoke conditon requires an investigation be it by FE and VES or examination from the exterior just as we might do for an automatic alarm. Committing a full complement of manpower to an apparently vacant building in aggressive fashion “may” not be fruitful and to be honest has killed a number of firefighters. One of which I worked with.
Bottom line is that vacant building fires suck because we have an obligation based on our commitment to the public to “go in there and put it out”. However, I am sure John’s(afore mentioned brother who was killed) wife and kids would rather that vacant became a parking lot while we watched it burn to the ground and he be hoem with them.
Experience, education, and that little voice in the back of your head are the things we need to pay more attention to. Buildings are replaceable,,,,,firemen are not.
As for the raffles, bingo and the other nonsense, if that is what you are truly worried about then you are in the wrong vocation brother.
Well said forgotten, we have a saying where I am from “come on in, the water is fine†you want to run in and chance the possibility become a statistic over a building that is of no use to anyone anyway then go for it. But you won’t drag my crew into your stupidity. Today’s firefighters have to be more of a thinking person than ever to survive, a full size up and then a decision about how to attack the fire is a must. I could give a bucket of spit what john Q thinks in the matters of our safety. And if you had the backing of the town (S) / city (S) you serve they would understand as well.
to defend my arguement, i guess i should explain myself a little further, i apologize for not doing so in the previous post, i was on my way to class. anyway, judging by the design aspect and imagined cost to install such equipment, it seems to me that the structure or its contents is of some higher than normal worth as opposed to that run down house with plywood windows where the local kids drink beer. this building is probibly is excellent structural condition. i understand the risks of sending crews in. but i wasnt focusing on this type of system per say. i was focusing on the tactic of complete exterior attack only for unoccupied structures. one dept on our RIT response commonly attacks unoccupied room and contents fires from aerial tips or ground ladders (successfully pushing the fire back into the building and creating a bigger problem). in this situation, sure i wouldnt send crews in until the screens were removed. if no progress is being made and the fire is getting larger, then yes pull back and go D. but, the “key” to this is ordinances and cooperation with the owners. get copies of the keys or knoxbox it. also, this could determine whats inside if anything.
to defend my comment about the public relations, my department is not supplemented by the town at all. we recieve no tax dollars and rely completely on fundraisers and events. we also have a casino opening in the reigon that is adversely affecting our fundraisers as well. now would one incident cause major damage to your fundraisers? prob not. but, PR is something to consider at every incident.
119, we have a few of the “fight it from the outside†or “it is too dangerous to go in†departments as well. Thank god it is on the outer response area for our truck so by the time we arrive there is either a steady river flowing out the front door or it is through the roof. I think we are all just saying our first priority on the fire ground is life safety, if no civilians are involved I swing that life safety consideration to my crew. I don’t want to get into the fundraising thing but you guys are getting screwed. No financial support from your town and a casino being built with no major donation or capital purchase for the depmarent? HOOOOOO FAAAAAAAA !!!!!
I come from a highly aggressive fire department (doesn’t everyone say that). We work hard and protect out reputation as tough, aggressive, smart firemen. We were taught, trained, and raised that way. We were also raised in the fact there’s no shame it getting kicked out and declaring it defensive. We’ve gone to neighboring districts and been requested ahead of other departments to do the harder jobs. We’ve been called proud and cocky, but never ignorant or dumb.
Safety is a priority always. But if it’s safe to go in and put it out then do it.
But then there’s the argument “no building on fire is safe.” Risk a lot to save a lot and all that bullshit. You can deck gun/ladder pipe EVERY building on fire and PROBABLY never get anybody hurt. For that matter take all the lights off the trucks and drive 10 mile UNDER the speed limit.
HOWEVER I was taught an unsearched building is an occupied building. You gotta search it to declare it unoccupied.
These VPS things aren’t that bad. Just detail the vent crew to taking them off. The key is recognizing them.
Every fire is going to be different. How you fight it depends on a multitude of things. So you can’t declare EVERY vacant building or EVERY building with VPS a defensive fire.
I’m aggressive but I’m not a dumbass. I didn’t start the fire and I’m not gonna get people hurt just to burn my gear up and try to look tough. We don’t walk around in melted bourkes and dirty gear. I’ve got a few helmets on the wall that are crispy but never on purpose. We clean our helmets and our gear. If it’s too far gone then piss on it I’m not going in, and neither is my crew.
We have those neighbors too. The ones who have a 1’x 1′ piece of sheetrock fall on them and declare that the whole roof is coming down! I witnessed it. We stood our ground and put it out-from the inside.
119, brother I’m sorry, ya’ll need some help money wise. Considering you’re fire department’s name and colors how bout selling shirts/stickers and such. I’ll buy some! I actually have your Code 3 tower. Put that stuff on your website. Everywhere I go I try to buy a shirt/patch/sticker from the fire department. If ya’ll are worried about the possibility of negative pr (guys walking around buying alcohol in your t-shirt) then make it red or super squirrely and nothing like your on duty shirts.
As always thanks for the information and opinions. I check this everyday and am routinely showing my crew. Several times your information has gotten us a heads up on things coming our way. Thanks for the hard work.
Stay safe brothers. Be aggresively safe. Watch out for the people full of book experience. It is possible to be so safe you’re dangerous.
yea i think i was slightly misunderstood from the get-go. haha. i quickly skimmed this article and saw the “fight it from the outside” and it brought back memories of the RIT team assignment to a mutual aid call. it was a vacant structure, fire in the attic, house was undergoing repairs to be moved into, so it wasnt a collapse hazard, well they placed the ladder pipe on the burn through (2’x2′ MAX) in the roof and successfully pushed the fire back into the attic, and spread it to the 2nd division. it wasnt secured with this VPS stuff but, i myself would have gone in and got the fire. noone was living there, there was noone inside, but i think for us to sit there and say, defense only, then thats where we go wrong. if it were my call id have the names of the keyholders registered with county for quick dispatch should something occur.
as far as no support from our town, its a popular thing, us, our neighbors and a few others in allegheny county say that. were in good shape financially despite this, mostly because of our grant writer, but still, PR in my area is pretty important. esp if were operating close to one of our 2nd in areas. many high priced homes and influential persons reside there. i dont make “looking good for the public” a priority, as i think its coming across that i do. i def put life safety first, but if the size up warrants interior attack on unoccupied structures, then go for it. since, there is no supposed risk to civillians, lets take our time then, open up, do it right, and at the same time when the news and the lawyers come, its looking by the book.
haha i caused quite a stir, wish i had the oppourtunity to talk with you guys in person.
stay safe brothers.
There is alot to take into consideration when entering a vacant building. Especially one that is fortified with these devices. What type of construction is the building made up of? Lightweight or standard. Are any wall/ceiling covering intact to “protect” the Lightweight construction. What condition was the building in before this system was installed? How long has the building been vacant? Has anyone helped themselves to the copper pipes/wiring/fixtures etc.. and destabilized the building in the process? If you pull up in the middle of the night and you have a good fire condition in a building with these devices and they all still appear intact, might this be an owner induced “torch job” for insurance money.
There are so many things that must be “factored in” to try and ensure as safe an operation as possible.
Once again an excellent topic from this website. Outstanding.
Stay safe.
Dan,
Has VPS ever been asked to provide or consider a knoxbox key with each system installed? This would save alot of time on gaining entry and save us from having to destroy your equipment. Just makes more scense to me that a key be made available for quick entry. You pull up with smoke showing, open the box, unlock the security doors, do what you need to do and lock up when you are done. No need to replace security doors after each job and everyone goes home safe. Just a thought. Be safe Brothers and Sisters.
I’ll second (or third or fourth) the Knox Box idea. Given our limited staffing and mutual aid resources, I can see the City not allowing the VPS system without a better plan for access. I think the VPS product offers the kind of security our vacants need to keep kids and vagrants out, but there’s no way our FD or mutual aid companies will be able to attack multiple points protected by VPS in a timely manner.
So I will ask the question,, I have been a fire fighter for twenty two years. Never had a point of origin involving a structure with these Where I work or volunteer. All gas and water utilities on abandoned structures are shut off and disconnected at the street. Electricity and phone/cable cut at the pole. So the question is if all of these are removed from the structure and the human factor is removed by the VPS system what is the point of ignition??? Like I have said thank you for all the hard work some of you have done by posting all of this, to be honest we had a company drill on this last week and that was a question presented by a old salty truck co guy… so what do you say ????
I think I read that these are also used to secure buildings where contractors (who do have power, gas, etc) are working.
We had the VPS guys to our station yesterday. They showed up with a number of doors and screens for us to go to town on and gave us a very good perspective on the inner workings and principals behind the system. We cut them with cut off saws, pried on them with haligans and beat on them with mauls and axes. At first glance these systems can be intimidating, but with an understanding of the system and some hands on you can see that they’re vulnerable.
What worked best for us?
On the keyed doors plunge cutting roughly 1 1/2â€- 2†to the right of the keyholes will allow you to cut the deadbolt as it passes between the door to the frame. I sent a suggestion to VPS asking them to mark the exact area indicating where we should cut.
On the keyless doors we felt the triangle cut approximately 3†to the left of the latch (which is centered on the door) worked best. We actually only made two of the three cuts to form an inverted V and knocked it in with a maul, allowing us to reach in and manually release the lock.
On the screens we made one plunge cut in the center of each of the spring loaded bars and hit the screen with a maul causing it to cave in thus releasing the tension.
Basically these systems get their strength from tension; once you release the tension (in what ever manner works for you) you have defeated the system.
Best of luck & stay low brothers!