 
Lieutenant Rhett Fleitz from Roanoke Fire sent in these pictures of something he found while traveling in his first due area. It’s a roof over, and it should cause some concern for everyone. These roof overs cause many problems including: making vertical ventilation more challenging for the outside team and concealing fire on top of the inside team. Check out the Supplemental Page for a complete description.
In escambia county we call these rain roofs. They are very common in our run down parts of town because of the lack of code enforcement. There are many dangers involved with a rain roof, the added weight seems to be the most dangerouse to me. Also the added difficulty involved with ventilation is another factor, by the time one has cut the hole werethey want it then discover they must cut a second hole in the other roof you may then need the hole in a different location because of the time delay. stay safe Matt Scallan
I sure don’t want to appear dumb, but how would you SAFELY put a hole in the second roof? I have seen this type of roof put overtop of a flat roof and I wouldn’t feel comfortable sending anybody between the two roofs.Any ideas?
This is what I would call a loser. The only way I could see venting would be if you got through the first roof to find the second, would maybe be a trench cut. Otherwise you would have to cut the 2X6’s that you were standing on to get access to the oringinal roof. Unless you could make the cuts from an aerial I dont see how it is possible. It shows that you need to be out in your first in district to see this during the construction and not at 3:00am. Let the engine guys know below that you are going to have voids and get them out of there if need be. Stay Safe Brothers.
A safe alternative may be a gable cut at the end of the structure. It could be accomplished out of an aerial platform given optimal truck placement to achieve a low angle. This would provide your vertical ventilation and relief the interior crew of heat and smoke. This would be dependant on where the fire is at in the building. Obviously, you would not want to do this if the fire was in the middle of the building because it would push fire and smoke through the whole structure, but on the other hand if ventilation does not occur quickly this will happen anyway.
Gents,
Have the dark ages fallen upon us once again…Well, for many, that saying may not collaborate any sense to you; however, for me it reiterates memories of particular personal interest. Furthermore, I’d like to say – “Thanks for bring this situation to light once again!â€
These types of building renovations have become quite popular for the aesthetically appeasing cheapo. They are particular common throughout our district. They range from a common residential occupancy to a commercial business. What I’ve learned by confronting these buildings is that they posses a peculiar advantage. Any guesses? Well, here’s a clue. These buildings are making our fire ground support tasks more difficult and dangerous.
Many years ago, when I was as green as a spade of grass, I was earning my livelihood with another predominate Florida fire department. (Thinking about this as if were only yesterday) we arrived on scene of a two – story; residential structure fire, that was being remodeled by the owner. As in many fires responses, we hardly know anything about the buildings we encounter – Modern day mysteries are what I commonly address them as.
On that particular day, we were tasked to provide ventilation. So, onward we go! (Just like Saint Nick or JP The Ventmaster) pouncing on the rooftop with vent saw and tools in hands. Cut one, two, three, four, & five! Smack! Smack! Rooftop louvered and vent cut initiated with heavy smoke pushing out. When we bluntly tapped through the vent cut and in attempts to pop the ceiling. We unpredictably encountered a surprise – Resistance! Normal ceilings…not! What the hell is going on? Our first impressionable thought was we struck tons of useless items packed ever so tightly within the cockloft.
During that time, the smoke conditions were changing drastically for the worse. Suddenly, from over our shoulders we heard the experienced voice of reason say, “Men, It’s time to leave! †And that’s depicting his words in discreetly manner. Lou Chamberlain could read fire conditions like a textbook and instinctively realize what was transpiring. He knew that the fire was roaring beneath our feet and between the two existing rooflines. Inevitably, we bailed off the roof and regrouped.
Presently, decades into my careers, I look back and thank god for having such an indigenous leader who possessed so many years of experience. He placed a Vegas size bet, extending from personal experience, that the building potentially was a roof over. Maybe that’s what they meant by the house always wins?
The lessons that I’ve learned from this incident are:
1. Things are more dimensional than we foresee.
2. Buildings are always mysterious.
3. Leadership isn’t about the rank – it’s the experience!
Far as fighting these types of fires are no different than any other. Strategically view everything on a multidimensional perspective and attempt to solve the mystery.
Darrell
Great pictures and thanks for sharing. Another great reason to hit the streets to stay alert to these types of buildings and situations in your area. I try to make rounds of my first due to check on new construction, make overs and I have found many hidden “tresures”… While I am out I notice changes to hydrants, access issues and traffic flows. Take the time to learn your first due and stay alert to changes that can occur every day for some areas.
On another note, I also notice this building may have had a car or vehicle drive thru it at one time, that or for some reason they replaced a large section of the bricks on the picture shot. Just a note that could not mean anything but thought it worthy for a mention.
Be alert – Stay safe.
~Egan
Gents,
After viewing these pictures and recollecting our inaugural years in the fire service. Here’s something interesting to serve on the table for all us to feast upon and digest.
Let’s place ourselves in the moment (Relating to this incident).
1. How would you vent this building?
2. Where would you vent this building?
3. How would ventilation affect this building during fire conditions?
Brethren, grab your eating utensils and commence devouring these foods for thought!
Darrell
Rain roof it is!!! These are more common than we all think. Beware brothers of the rain roofs on mobile homes. My past experience in the weatherization biz has taught me that these type of roofs are an accident waiting to happen. Weight on the stucture is an instant issue. I would go with horizontal vent in the gables like Mr. Hillman. Stay Low Stay Safe
104
A 360 of the building would help with planning my attack, if I didn’t do a PREPLAN before this job was dispatched. Looking at side A I see a single story building. Looks like it may have a fire stop between units. If the fire stayed in the unit, no problem with the knock that I can see. Go in, hit the fire open the windows or if it is really off, have the O.V. guy take a window as you hit it.If it made it to the attic, Go to the units on either side and start pulling ceilings. put the attic ladder up and if you can contain the fire with a line great, if not,maybe a gable cut is in order. Don’t think I would use it if the fire can be contained to 1or 2 units because you could cause the fire to run the roof with that type of vent.We could make this real easy and slow the response until it vents itself through both roofs but that isn’t good for P.R. I guess the bottom line is, We didn’t light the fire and we didn’t put the rian roof on, so if we can’t put it out SAFELY, somebody loses a building.
Could be a tricky vent. Looks like the building is a multi dwelling, so a bigger picture is needed to actually determine what type of options are logical, venting the gable may not be an option with the fire wall in place, a trench cut might work to limit horizontal movement and a heat hole is going to require step cutting the roofs. I was told years ago that the only reason a rain roof is added is because the existing roof is s*** and the owner is too cheap to fix it right. Maybe we shouldn’t be on the roof. If it is determined that we have to make the cut, be quick about it, this type roof is not the one you want to admire your craftsmanship upon, have a lookout monitoring conditions and trade time for space. Above all if something doesn’t feel right follow your gut and get off the roof.
There are a few reasons for roof overs. One as many have stated is to repair an existing roof which is in disrepair. However even this being the case by code they must provide for a rated and engineered roof tied into the load-bearing walls. Many times you will find that roof-overs are built to change the aesthetics of a structure without having major expense in demo work. A common roof-over during renovation is done to make different roof pitches over existing flat roof structures. This is a very common renovation in the Southern states due to leaks that are problematic to this style roof. As we can see in the pictures they have added a large area on the end of the structure making a more prominent gable end. This area can contain large volumes of fire. As many of you have pointed out taking the gable is an option depending on the location of the fire. If it is located towards the fire wall this option would contribute greatly to fire spread throughout the rest of the structure. With the fire wall gable cuts are not an option for the other end. A few things that we need to consider at this point. If the fire is located in the occupancy itself without extension into the roof-over space we must get ahead of the fire and hook ceilings starting on the long-end of the building to allow our hose streams to be effective. After combating the long-end we focus our attention on the short- end hopefully with a second arriving truck company if we have this good fortune . What appears to be an old motel these should be single rooms which fire attack would begin at the door and work in seeing that we only have one way in and out. If the fire is in the roof-over space fire has already most likely burned through the pre-existing roof decking so venting the newest roof would be effective. If this is the case hopefully our assessment and cut is being made not directly over the space involved due to the construction but slightly down which will draw fire but like our hose streams we give a little to make our stand. As fire and smoke exit the room and travel through the space it does so only to the point of our vent opening. If the fire begins in the roof over space we must open it to get access to the fire.****** As stated in many other postings I am adamantly against placing a nozzle in a vent hole.****** This is a situation in which our cut would be made simply to give ourselves an avenue of making access for our hose streams. If the fire started here we obviously would not be concerned with putting everything back inside due to the pre-existing decking. If you do not open the roof in this scenario you will not access it from underneath and will end up burning the roof off. I recall a fire in our region in which this very thing happened. Due to existing flatroofs access for nozzles could not be made. The other option is piercing and distributor nozzles if you know the location or where abouts of the fire to get initial knockdown.**** As bill stated a trench operation is a great defensive cut for property conservation tactics.***** I have to agree with Bill once again but must expand on his statement. The roof is not a place to admire your handy work. Get the vent and get off especially if working on lighter construction. The only reason to stay is if after establishing your vent hole you are detailed farther down the roof to open a trench… Just a few of my thoughts Jeff Ponds.
These “roof overs” happen alot in our area. They are put over older mobile homes that had low pitch, metal roofs. We had a fire in one recently. Not having run one of these yet put us a little behind. A vent was made in “the roof”, and an interior crew was hitting the fire and pulling ceiling. The fire ran the void space the length of the structure and proved difficult to deal with. The final out was to ladder the structure with four firemen and use hooks and poles to pull away the second roof, and lay a blanket of foam.
Folks…Good comments by all. One thing to remember is the possibility of having to perform both gabel end and roof over ventilation. We have these buildings in our jurisdiction and have developed some SOP’s regarding our tactics. If the fire has burned through the first roof, an offensive heat hole will be necessary. A strip/trench cut will prevent the fire from running the entire length of the building betweent the two roofs if fire spread dictates. I have found that most of the time, these roof overs are built with no fire seperation walls between the different occupancies. Also, the fire attack teams will be asking for ventilation as well, and we have found that the gable cuts offer good relief. Obviously the danger is increased fire activity and spread. At some point, you may treat this an a fully involved attic and just salvage the contents of the building. Be cautious and very observant. Smoke explosion potential is greatly increased due to the fuel build-up trapped between the two roof layers. Our work is definately cut-out for us, but a well coordinated attack with good communication will bring safety and success. Thanks for the thoughts…