John Clark from Sacramento Truck 6 sent in this video they captured during some acquired structure training. This video shows the strength of some of the new style dual pane vinyl windows. They were training on various VES techniques and discovered that these new style windows are much tougher than they appear. John pointed out that these windows have been becoming extremely popular in both new and refurbed structures. These windows are certainly not indestructible, but as this video demonstrates, we may need to discover more efficient ways of “getting them.â€
38 thoughts on “Dual Pane Vinyl Windows”
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This comes as little suprise. I wittnessed, on more than one occasion, truckies wind up with a Halligan bar (pick) only to have it bounce off when it struck the glass of an EFW. Sometimes requiring 3-4 strikes before the glass yeilds. Another problem is “port hole” ventilation in this type of glass. It is important to clean out the entire window glass.
A major safety concern is caused by one of Newton’s laws…for action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the vent firefighter is working from a ground ladder, the energy that would have been absorbed by the glass is redirected back and could cause the firefighter to fall from the ladder. It is extremely important to lock in to the ladder by leg lock (or one of its variations, arm lock, or ladder belt. Mike Ciampo has written several articles on locking into a ladder check them out on Fire Engineering’s website archives. Too many firefighters have the mindset of “I’m only going to be on the ladder for a second” and fail to secure themselves before performing an action. This mentallity is only going to get them hurt, or worse, someday. Stay safe.
is it safe to say that after a couple whacks its just better to set the ladder for rescue and use the halligan pick?
I’m afraid I can’t see the video or find a link. What am I doing wrong?
Yes T, first off… keeping in mind this duty is for an experienced FF who knows the ins and outs of taking windows. when to, when not to, and where are crucial. It is possible that the need for extention ladders to be put in place is not necessarily the exact time that a window should be taken. Please dont anyone get into the habbit of extending a ladder and automatically throwing it against a window. Second is what are we taking the window for? venting only or ‘vententersearch?’ venting only: tip of ladder at top of window on the windward side. ves: tip of ladder at window sill, clear window top first then toward bottom. SCBA face piece (atleast) should be on to prevent tiny shards of glass from getting into nose cone of face piece and also acts as face guard. As for the leg lock, not a big fan. slow and easy strokes at the window first then progressively faster. Gives you a heads up of the kind of kick back you’ll get. Leg lock with no one footing the ladder creeps me out! But yeah, two or three attmpts with the tip of the ladder and if that doesnt work you really dont want to keep attmepting for another 45 seconds. hook or halligan is best and even those may take a few wacks before it does the job. Remember if youre taking window then YOURE TAKING THE WINDOW…..THE WHOLE WINDOW. So youre going to have to go up there anyway.
if i ever come across this type of window in my district (which im sure i wont)i will be sure to not slam the ladder into it over and over…maybe just climb up and try another way. work smarter, not harder.
stay low
first off, john i think that you may want to talk to youre chief about setting up sog’s for to people to a ladder its alot safer i found that out off the job luckey im still here…second what happens to thease windows under heat? do they weaken or does the heat not really have any effect?…also if you take youre halligan (pick side) to a corner according to physics thier should be less rebound (less risk of falling).
stay safe
i agree. however, im not in charge of hiring unfortunately. other depts in the same situation (light staff’d) just make sure those ladder pads are dug real well into the lawn. Be Safe All!!
Hey brothers,
I just want to clarify a few things. This was ONLY our attempt to test the effectiveness using the ladder to initially break the windows during a VES operation. This is done ,if it works, to allow the smoke and heat to blow before we climb the ladder, clear the sash and enter the room. Trust me, we will not be standing outside a working structure banging on a window with our ladder until it breaks. Our plan is to bang it once or twice and then climb and clear it with a tool. We wanted to train on this because we found that often people will teach and talk about techniques without ever trying it themselves. So just keep in mind we only wanted to show the surprising strength of newer windows not a clinic on all the aspects of VES techniques and safety.
JC
SFD T6B
JC thanks for the vid. Definately got the point acroos!
JC – Great video. Almost every new home constructed has these little babies in them (and almost all the remods). They are a SOB to get through if you go at them like a normal window.
What can be even more of a pain in the ass is when the framing is constructed of vinyl(plastic). Taking the whole window includes the sash, and this can be quite a chore.
We’ve found that although the OVM usually only had to carry the hook and a ladder, these type of windows have neccesitated the halligan bar also. What has worked absolute wonders is the big boy from Firehooks. Over 50″ of halligan and enough kinetic force to seperate the sash at the joints and take the glass.
Since we are talking windows, anybody have a written policy that lets brothers know that the window (although vented) with a sash in place has no ladder outside waiting, but the one with no sash has one? With the “plastic revolution” in full swing, if your not using this, you may want to think about it. It will save time on the vent assignment, and will help to coordinate the interior and exterior functions.
“Vent, and the Engine shall live…”
Just another thought on dual-pane and triple-pane windows; they are designed and built to insulate the house…… So, be aware of this before you stick your ugly dome in the path of a backdraft; while trying to take the window. I’m sure there are studies somewhere on the likelihood of backdraft in newer energy efficient construction.
G.Smith, SFD Engine7
I would love to see a study on the effects of heat on these types of windows, along with backdrafts etc associated with the excessive build-up of heat. I would much rather go to work on one of these windows out of an aerial strictly due to the amount of force involved with taking them. Horizontal work is much easier than vertical, not to mention safer…
stay low
Great Job JC…Great Job also to the crew at sixes…I’ll definitly keep this video in the back of my mind…that is if I can ever get away from this white cloud.
Bring it
WOW, ok keep your hands in the vehicle and stay seated at all times, if your heart is weak get off the ride cause were gonna get crazy! If you feel like vomitting I hope your in the back.
Brothers Its a window whats with all the crazy talk 50″ Halligans. There not Halligans there pike poles. Newtons laws of physics? Leg locks, I never saw anybody climb the ladder. At the risk of sounding Cleeshay K.I.S.S. I think J.C. wanted us to see this and go out and try it ourselves, not sit at the P.C. and point out/blame, and list all the infractions. Thats my job!
FOCUS, I think the authors intent (J.C) was to say this crap is out there and watch out for it.
It was not a safety lesson or a quantum physics lecture. Did you read the directions on the box? Last time I checked this job is dangerous we risk a lot to save a lot “risk vs reward” does this sound familiar? I’m not asking anybody to hurt themselves or be careless just no your situation, have some tools to work with. Read the sticker on the Brim of your lid! I think it says something like “firefighting is an inhearently dangerous ultra hazzardous job” and so on.
“protectin’ the hood” Nice! I hope you watch your remodels the 2nd job last tour had these windows in a remodel, by the way, when its hot they melt and fall out. Has anyone tried to by a single pane window lately?
SOG’s for laddering “?” come on thats a training issue. If we have to carry a rule book for throwing ground ladders we need to re-think what we signed up for. GET’R DONE. Learn it in probie School, Practice and train with it on the line and please if your on the Truck/Ladder master your craft, Its your job. Oh, then train some more.
Ciampos class does not need an SOG. see one, do one, teach one, test it.
Go hit your thumb with a framing hammer. I bet you dont want to do it again. Thats what this is about “training”.
Leg lock people put the hammers down, that was a metaphor, uh, a joke, dont do it. god I hope they read this part fast enough.
Do you really have time to read a study on the effects of heat on thermal pane windows as associated to the relative potential to backdraft in the modern energy efficent home.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Sorry I bored myself.
How long does it take to set the aerial up? “I’ll be right back, My hot pocket is burning in the microwave.” I’m back, How many people does it take? Thats a good study. I bet one guy with a 24 and a tool is faster to the window, on a “VES” just a hunch.
“WARNING” for those of you with hurt feelings and bruised egoes. Maybee your daddy did not yell at you enough when you were little. This is sarcasim mixed with reality. This is part of the job, its in the description. If you don’t like it Starbucks is looking for a few good baristas.
Brothers and sisters it’s been real. The videos are great. Awesome site keep up the good work. The comments are awesome. Leg lock man and gheto guy it was nice meeting you also. I got to go, moms screaming cause I left the seat up again.
Stay Low…
That’s certainly the most entertaining post I’ve seen on here, and believe it or not, I actually knew what you were talking about. Well, most of the time.
Ceepinitreal:
Bro,
The beauty of a fourm is that it can take on an entire different direction from what the original intent was. Sometimes a bad direction, but most of the time it generates some great info. As for Leg locks…are you saying that you do not advocate securing yourself to a ground ladder when working off of it. Not necessarily with a leg lock, but by some method. You also seem to advocate only knowing the hows of our job, not the whys. Correct me please if I have misunderstood your post.
It’s a beautiful thing seeing 24’s come off first (better to have to much than not enough) and “Takin glass with the ladder makes one of the most lovely sounds i’ve ever heard” as said by the boys inside. GREAT VIDEO LESSON. K.I.S.S sums it up.
Your ladder placement is great for the IFSTA test in the academy. What happens when you put your ladder up to vent (next to the window) and you see/hear a victim inside? Do you go down the ladder, move it, resize it, put it at the bottom of the sill (best location) and then climb up it again? Seems like a waste of oh-so-valuable time. A ladder thrown to the sill can facilitate the most functions with the least effort in the shortest amount of time. I have no idea why the academy books tell us to throw the ladder different ways for different tasks. Just a little something.
To (no name.) Yes I gave the book answer. Not necessarily what i would do but based on the way a question was asked by another brother it seems as though he may be new. Not trying to screw him up and im sure he’ll learn tricks of the trade as he goes along. thanks for your concern though, i appreciate it.
ceepinitreal:
The least you did is make all of us laugh…its a forum bro
Stay low
We teach laddering the base/bottom sill of the window first, as you would for entering or rescue/removal of any vics – Instead of using the ladder to break out the window. Not that it is right or wrong – better or worse, but we look at it as saving a step. Once your at the window, typically you would use a tool to clear out any additonal glass anyway, as well as sweep and sound the floor. By placing the ladder at the sill immediately, you don’t have to extend than retract the fly section and you are in a position to make entry much faster.
Than the follow are the steps we teach in the order that they are typically performed:
1. One FF ascends the ladder – locks in with a belt, leg or their arm/shoulder.
2. The window is then vented. If it’s a double hung,
the bottom pane is taken out first.
3. The FF assesses the thermal conditions,sweeps the floor for a vic, sounds the floor for stability and then makes entry if conditions are viable.
4. The FF healing the ladder steps back after entry, so the FF inside can completely and more safely take out the entire window (double hung) – in essence making the window a door.
5. Once the window is taken out, the inside FF quickly locates the door to the room, checks the hallway for signs of any victims outside the room (if negative), closes the door and than initiates the search. Obviously if a TIC is available, it is used to help assess fire conditions and search the room/hallway.
6. The second FF can enter as well to assist in the search and victim extraction. The third FF of the team stays at the tip of the ladder to monitor the entry team and receive and carry the vic down the ladder.
This is just a basic VES OP and variating any procedures is at the discretion of the VES team.
Jamie, or should I call you Mr. Morelock? How about Jeramiah?
Brother, please call me that for future refrence. The reason I chose to speak about almost everything but leg locks was, I have not been in the position to due one while trying to VES off a ladder. Maybe you have?
Its been my experience (to this Point) either the window is open, or the window is broken with the tip of the ladder. After getting the window we have trainded on many things.
cleaning the window, “this takes time”. Leaving the sash vs taking it, alot of this depends on the direction of the sash horizontal/vertical and the size of the whole were creating, also where is the fire and how much time do we have?.
Just so we dont miss quote Lt. Ciampo, the idea for leaving the sash in was paticular to an upper floor room with multiple windows, you leave the sash intact on the windows that are commomn to the room, that need to be taken for Horizontal vent after leaving the ladder. Take the one at your ladder. This was done to help find the ladder if conditions changed rapidly.
Am I totaly discounting leg locks, or the whys of this job? Nope it was just my direction at the time. I needed to make a point that it has not been my experince to need one (a leg lock) until i’m on the ladder.
However when we have had chances to VES from portable ladders we have used all of the above, every time was diffrent and it seemed to me like getting off the ladder and into the room to shut a hall door was of my greatest concern.
As for the whys of this job, thats a matter of perspective. If you were brand new I think you should have quite a few questions. Hopefully if we train enough those slow down.
I also belive its generational my generation was brought up to do as your told, unless it was ilegal imoral or,, uh,, I forget the third one, oh yah “it’s to dangerous”!
I understand they are making people diffrent now. The great teachers of this nation have taught a whole generation that there are no stupid questions. Thats great! The part they left out was that there are stupid people, and “you cant fix stupid”.
Asking questiuons does not work in all situations use the military as an example not many questions are asked during an ambush and since we are paramilitary organizations it does not work well for us either.
Jamie I dont think your stupid, but i’m sure you have been around long enough to be witness to something like this.
I have taken Lt. Ciampos class. Fourtunately I have never been faced with jumpers while on a portable ladder, however you can bet I will be locking my leg in the day that I do. Also we train for this and a few other situations on he ladder. I’m curious if you have standards for these common situations?
I will say it again My intent is not to get someone hurt, I do not want to see a bunch of carless cowboys running around doing stupid things. However this great job is ultra hazzardous, an if you analyze everything (to death) you will not be doing your job, and someone else will. It’s great that we have websites today to learn from each others mistakes from coast to coast.
To answer your question Leg Locks are in. when do we need to use them I dont have all those answers, thats a great debate. I dont need my boss concernded about a printed standard while I’m climbing the 35′ ext. Hopefully we have trainded on it and have an understanding as crew/team of what is expected of each of us. I got to go my bran flakes are gettin soggy.
Stay Low
Can’t see the video?
Try just cut/pasting this into your browser.
http://www.vententersearch.com/videos/dualpanewindows.wmv
After watching the second part of the video (12 strikes with ladder); what becomes of the ladder’s integrity? Is the ladder compromised due to the amount of blunt force (specifically resorting to the beam for striking)?
Good Stuff 🙂
Awesome training bros. I know that here in Colorado most houses have these and if they don’t they will soon. Since, I think maybe cause of the lack of oxygen here, we don’t have much fire that it is good to see a training situation such as this. It really throws out the poin of being ready for anything. Including checking your tools and making sure that they are ready at the begining of the shift. Sharp, points are not rounded off, and saws are fueled. A video for every probie and rookie school to see. Again awesome video!!
Brother Ceepinitreal,
I have read your reply over my breakfast this morning. There is one comment that disurbs me greatly…please don’t call me Mr. Morelock, that’s my Father. It distrubs me so greatly beacause I am now begining to realize that I am not as young as I used to be. It hurts when the pretty and young cashier at the store refers to me as Mr. Morelock. Jeremiah is my brother’s name. Oh well. Now back to the thread.
Questions do have a place on the fireground under some circumstances. Examples would be when you need clarification, and when you disagree with an order due to safety concerns (above the norm). Other than those two I can’t think of any other time that can not wait until after that job is finished. If someone doesn’t understand how to accomplish or perform a task…that’s a training issue.
You made reference to the Military. In the Marine Corp. you are told when to take a dump, how long the dump will be, what color and how it will smell. In other services you are just told to take a dump. They (who gave the order) expect that you know what they expect as an end result. They leave it up to you on how to accomplish the dump in an efficient and timely manner. Now if you are surprised and the dump gets scared out of you, trained properly, your subconscious should take over and you should react automatically and perform what is required to mitigate this issue.
I’ll take a thinking crew over a bunch of followers any day. The reason is, what happens when there is no one to lead them? What do the followers do when the problem is not the norm? Thinkers already have thought of contingencies and for the ones they haven’t the thinkers will solve on the spot with little problem.
My job likes to build thinking firefighters. Displined thinkers who will figure it out, accomplish the task, and still operate within the incident command system. They also expect us to do this with a high measure of safety (reasonable for this profession). Our recruits are put through 6 months of training that is considered basic. They know the hows and whys at the start so they do not have to ask when it is not an appropriate time. We do not have specific standards. We use general standards. Specific standards do not allow for variation or adaptation. That type of micro-manging will only result in failure under many circumstances.
Something as simple as locking into a ladder (when the situation requires) should not have to thought about. It should be so well practiced that you do it without thinking about it. It should be a reaction. If not, you will take your mind and your focus off of the task at hand. Such as the victim or the fire. This should go for nearly every physical function your body performs on the fireground. It doesn’t matter if it is hand placement on a Halligan, opening a nozzle, or locking into a ladder.
As strong as that window may be, the ladder is lightweight and couldn’t do the job. Put the damn ladder up and hit the window with a tool! Don’t use the ladder for striking the window.
yes you can fix stupid, but you have to get rid of osha so tha the stupid can recieve the darwin award and remove themselves from population. says alot about sog’s verses sops. train and know the basics and some advanced and learn what the jake next to you has for a hobby or job off duty. this makes the task and the thinking to solve the problem much better. we don’t do normal things so don’t expect normal from us. train train and train it will take over so you can think on real stuff on the job. great video and love thinking outside the box.
this is great stuff
i think that posting the ladder in the correct entry spot to begin with is best. climb up the ladder vent and enter if nessary. this makes it a one step motion and there is no incorrect tool useage going on. the ladder is a climbing tool, not a striking tool. obviousley the ladder is not doing the job so use a different method.
I am big on doing what ever you have to, to get the job done as quickly and safely as possible. I have used this technique to vent, enter, and search. It can be quicker than climbing and striking the window with an axe or halligan, however before entry one must still clear the window. After the third or fourth strike, one should try another way. These windows are clearly tough, so many conventional methods, using any striking tool, may not work either. Don’t use all your energy and effort to just get the window, after the window is cleared you still have to go in search, and maybe remove a victim or victims. My suggestion, other than constant training, would try the ladder first, if that doesn’t break the window go to conventional methods, and if the conventional stuff requires just as many strikes, a saw may be the best to start to clear these types of windows.
Yikes! Tough windows. A couple of thoughts on these windows. Here in the Northeast we used to be able to rely on the fact that older buildings had old (easier) windows, however not any more. As old buildings are bought and rehabbed for energy efficiency, these new vinal windows are showing up all over the place. We’ve experienced the same effects as are shown in the video; bouncing ladders and tools off the things when going to vent them. Even if you do get the glass out, the sash is still a challenge. One thing we have found is that these new windows in old building are only held in by a few wood screws! If your ladder bounces like a ball off the window, re-position your ladder to the side and try and pry the whole thing out of the building. If you’re lucky enough to have enough staffing for someone to foot the ladder, make sure you give them a “heads up”. One other thought. These windows are part of what contributes to the whole “tight” building syndrome. When you run across these things let command or whomever is listening to the radio know. This is important because ventilation will be slowed by dealing with these things, and if you want to make a hasty exit you won’t be able to quickly “take” the window and get out.
By the way guys, this is my first time at your site and I think it’s great. Keep up the good work and stay safe.
Great video! Our company and several others here in Columbus (OH) use this technique when necessary. I have personally encountered these windows on several jobs, both as the inside ff and the OVM. With all the functions the OVM has, this technique helps speed up the process. Especially, when staffing is minimum. After a few strikes with the ladder and it doesn’t break, then position your ladder to the sill and go up and clear it with your tool. JC from Truck 6 says it best. This is just another technique to apply when the situation warrants. Hands on training is the time to find out how well different tactics work. Table top discussions and reading articles all have their place, but getting out and trying it for yourself is the only way to know how well a technique or tactic is going to work for you and your company. Nice Job SFD Truck 6, thanks for sharing!
Great website brothers!
Hitting the window multiple times with the ladder using great force may damage ladder components and compromise the locks.
Double check the locking of the ladder sections before climbing.
I think you guys got this covered.. one point I have’nt heard yet was the fact that when performing VES. It’s a “timed” tactic.. meaning if you take glass too early and dont get face piece donned, up the ladder cleared the rest of the way and in. You may never get the chance, YES! they are EEW’s and do hold back tremendous heat and stuff.. So, on the ladder, just below, ready to go, let it blow.. and IN!
pretty good (just made that shit up) but really you got to consider that…
love this frickin site!
be safe ppls
One more point.. My man is spent after rackin this ladder more then twice! He is’nt gonna be able to make a search, let alone find someone and get then to the ladder, even if they are a 2 man team..
yes smarter, not harder..
Beware of blast proof plastic film covering. Recently had fire where we encountered this problem. The covering is applied to windows just like window tint on auto’s. It protects occupants inside of a building from flying glass. Even after full room involvement the windows were still intact. Attempts to remove the windows from the exterior would take 5-6 strikes from a halligan before cracking. FYI
Stay Safe!