Firefighter Eric Bearss from Orlando (FL) Tower 7 sent in this idea for a better balance point. He pointed out that he picked this idea up while assisting Mike Ciampo (FDNY) at the annual Orlando Fire Conference with Champ’s Street Smart Ladders Class. Obviously, the main purpose behind the marking is to identify the balance point for each ladder. This larger marking serves multiple other purposes: easy equipment identification, and of course the ever important company pride (take a look at the fireground pics @ the station.) However, the most important aspect of this version of the balance point marking has to do with helping the outside team. In the instances when the outside team may be split up on the fireground, its obvious to the other team member exactly which ladder is yours, and exactly what room you are currently VESing (by leaving your hook on the ladder.)
The picture above shows the balance point painted on the base section which, once the stick is thrown, puts the unit ID right at eye level. This tip will added to all of the other great tips on the Tips from the Bucket page.
Anybody notice that the portable ladder is thrown with the Fly Section IN towards the building?
How about that climbing angle!
“Anybody notice that the portable ladder is thrown with the Fly Section IN towards the building?”
Let’s hope that was so the photographer could capture the unit ID more clearly!
Otherwise it may read as L-1. 😉
Fits
I don’t think I’m too crazy about the idea of leaving your hook on the ladder. I prefer to hook it over the sill and leave it projecting into the room I am searching. That way there is less chance of missing the window when you return from your search…it’s pretty hard to get past the 6′ hook. I do like the idea of marking the balance point with the company identifier.
With the fly section in as the picture shows, one person can throw the 24′ extension ladder by themselves. My company has trained extensively using this technique, and as you can see, if you throw the ladder the traditional way, the halyard is on the inside of the ladder between the ladder and the building. You would then have to face away from the fire building to raise the ladder. This way as shown in the picture allows you to face the fire building and raise the ladder to the desired height all while watching for hazards, etc. Good technique and good idea with the marking!
I agree you throw the 24′ extension ladder with 1 person by placing the fly section towards the building, extending it, and pulling it away from the building getting your proper climbing angle. But once it is in place, rotate or “flip” the ladder so the fly section is facing out, as is the way aluminum ladders are designed to be deployed. The exception to this rule is when deploying wooden ladders, which a lot of west coast departments use. From what I have read and been told by friends of mine that work in San Francisco, they keep the fly section in towards the building.
I do like the idea of marking the balance point on ladders for 1 person use. Any trick of the trade that makes our job easier helps.
Chad,
I agree with your technique. We also train/operate to throw the 24′ with one FF however, we then rotate the ladder over so that the fly is OUT.
I don’t think it really matters which way the fly is facing when your in the middle of a fire performing VES.
Climbing angle does not take priority over tip placement. Who cares if the ladder is at a 75 degree angle as long as the tips are at the window sill.
Billy, your fly in / fly out comment is dead on !
Manufacturers will support either method
The Monday morning quarter backs need to get real. The topic is about the balance point. Mr. Perfect !!!!!
Another useful tip is to actually mark the rungs. If the runs are marked you will be able to know which end is not only up, but where to run your bowline through in the event you need to hoist the ladder up.
I thought the post was about a BALANCE point. I think its a great idea and looks good. Is the paint or the black lettering reflective? I know all our ground ladders at the house are getting new paint jobs next shift, thanks for the idea.
** All the Quarter backs need to get out and train!!! **
FLY IN or OUT ????
Alco-Lite will tell you that their extension ladders are engineered to be used either way, without compromising the ladder/components integrity or rated capacity. I was told that by the owner of the company. Duo Safety does not recommend utilizing their aluminum or fiberglass extension ladders with the fly in. However, the ladder will function with the fly in, at a 4% decrease in load carrying capacity, without issue. If my math is correct the Duo Safety extension ladder would be rated at 720 lbs. capacity with the fly in.
ps- Nice job on the balance points…it makes a tremendous difference when carrying the ladder alone.
why in life is there always that one person who just needs to nit pick where none is needed? And always doing so while never researching why the thing they are nit picking is the way it is?
I am always looking to learn new things. And to tell you the truth I never knew that alcolites could be used fly in or out. Good to know that if I’m in a pinch for time, because some poor soul needs a ladder to their window. I can get it up to them immediately if I’m on my own, since my Dept uses Alco’s.
I need to defend the nit-pickers. We do a job which expects perfection and deals with reality. Even the little stuff should be torn apart in order to improve (not to diminish others). That being said, The ladder should generally be thrown FLY IN. We are discussing VES here (I think) and the angle should be 55-65 degrees during VES or preparing for egress. The key is to allow a rapid exit (bail out) or the removal of a victim. (Obviously tip placement and stability take president if necessary.)
I don’t know how many of us have removed flaccid bodies from windows but the lower angle makes a world of difference in supporting and managing the weight, let alone if you had to bail out. Additionally the fly in configuration reduces the likely hood of slipping on the ladder while descending the ladder. I know we have all slipped while descending, between ladder sections (where your next rung is 2†farther in from the one above), and the fly in method basically eliminates this problem – try it.
Time and place for everything, but its often safest to throw it fly in. My Department went to OSHA with the aforementioned information and received a waiver to not follow manufacturer recommendations if needed to do this.
Drill Every Day
This is NOT to nit-pick, because it’s a good idea, but should there be any concern painting the beams where the heat senor label’s are like it appears in the picture?
Should high-temp paint be avoided for that, or would it not really affect it.
we have our ladders painted similarly when we stole the tip from Ciampo. I cant tell from the picture but we also paint the tip of the ladder for visibility in case it comes down to bailin’ out and / or being certain there is a ladder there when you are coming out at night.
Dont remember how many times I’ve been told to never ever paint any part of a ladder…
The street smart ladder class has taught there are a few ways that fire depts across the country mark their ladder’s balance points. Some just put a sticker(L 1), some paint the number there, some use electrical tape but it can wear off if it slides in and out of the ladder trough enough, some depts. do something called marking the box (marking the inside and outside of both beams so the firefighter can step into the balance point with their shoulder) while others don’t do anything and look like one of the 3 stooges when the 20′ roof ladder is acting like a see-saw as they pull it off the rig. I believe in marking it with your unit ID # to provide some espirit de corp. If that ladder shows up in the newspaper theres a lot of pride in the firehouse and company. Pride and professionalism with an easy solution.
We should NEVER paint the rungs because of the potential to slip off of it with the boot. With the balance point marked the firefighter will know where to place the rope during a ladder lift too.
One thing I would like to mention….if 2 in and 2 out was working so well, we wouldn’t have to worry about one guy carrying a ladder, or performing the ladder drag technique and concerned about marking our ladders.
While I’m on my high horse…..why are so many departments failing to mark the butts of the ladder, the bottom of the butt visible by the firefighter while he is 25′ away from the rig. Another thing that helps us reconize what size ladder is still on the rig while a good distance from it.
As for the 6 foot hook….take it with you to the top of the ladder, when you get into the window pull it in, and sweep the wall up about mid-way, looking to close the door to the room. If you sweep the hook to low it will get caught up on some furniture or under something. Shutting the door provides time, allows the room to vent, and stops pulling the fire in the direction of the ventilation/egress opening you just came through. Also, a lot of times the window is directly across from the doorway, to provide natural cross ventilation for the occupants.
As for the fly in and out, check the electrical warning/angle marker on the side of the ladder, it should also have a black arrow pointing to the direction the fly should face. Sure if we’re in a one man raise it works to fly in and the halyard outward….know your depts. standards and act accordingly.
As for heat sensor labels-remember if they turn black they’ve been subject to over 300 degrees and should be placed O.O.S. and tested. These labels are attached below the 2nd rung from the top of each section/on each side of the beams, which should not be near the balance point.
Thanks for the help,Champ! My intention was to address the balance point idea but,since it was brought up…Fly in/out: As was mentioned,the manufacturer(and my dept.)deems either way acceptable. I prefer to shoulder the extension ladder w/the halyard against me(to the inside),so when the ladder is spiked and leaned into the building,it can be extended simultaneously(one movement),which results in “fly in”.
Hook on the ladder/sill? The point here is that we never ascend a ladder without our tools and whether it’s left on the ladder or the sill is personal preference… it’s used as an indicator to the rest of our outside team… hook at the window: occupied by OVM.
We all have to follow our respective department’s SOP’s… Keep training & Sharing info!
Fly in vs. fly out depends on the ladder….period. As mentioned above wooden ones are usually designed to be thrown fly in along with some of the fiberglass ones. A good indicator of this is the presence of steel clamps that are attached to the fly section and prevent seperation by wrapping around the bed section. Know your brand and type of ladder.
Now for my opinion: To me the fly in on a standard fire service aluminum ladder is absolutely dead in the wrong. It’s a complete game of give and take. I would much rather take the 2″ step in on the bed section than to attempt to slide my brother firefighter up and over the bed section for a downed firefighter removal situation. Also if I’m trying to make a rapid escape or a head first ladder slide I don’t want the “speed bump” of smashing into the bed section. Fly out also gives you at least 2+ inches prior to hitting the pully with your foot (if you are more centered for some reason) and gets the halyard out of the way removing a potential tripping hazard.
We operate solo as an OV until the chauffeur finishes gearing up so I completely agree with throwing it as needed initially, and fly in is ususlly much easier with the 24 or 28, but flip the thing around when done, it only takes a second.
Stay safe all, and don’t over-engineer things, Keep it simple and know what your ladder and/or department calls for to keep everyone on the same page.
I know this is a bit off the original topic, but I have no shortage of opinions!!!
Many good points have been brought up in this discussion. Fly In vs Fly out ? I for one like the fly in method. I think it is a matter how you train with your ladders and what your comfortable with. I dont think there is anything wrong with either way of using your Portable ladders. There are many ways to meet the same objective…..Ladders for Life!
First, thank you Eric for sharing your picture and idea. This post was about what Eric submiited, but do not get upset when someone brings up other items for discussion.
DISCUSSION is why I think the creators of this webpage have created and maintain it. It is these types of discussions that open up thoughts and make others think.
Last thing I want to say before I share the legal stuff I found… Every region, state, and department has its own SOP’s and they are usually specific to the needs, training, equipment, staffing and operational needs. Keep that in mind before you judge or say someone is “doing it wrong”
I looked into the legal stuff for this…. Found on an OSHA site in regards to placement of fly sections of fire service ladders…
“On wooden ladders the upper section is controlled and held in place by guide irons and any forces applied between the two sections is transmitted through the guide irons. The proper distribution of the forces depends on how the fly section is setup. In most cases the fly section is designed by the manufacturer to be on top.
Metal and fiberglass ladders are designed to ride inside the flange section of the lower part of the ladder thereby giving more surface area in the flange lip to transfer the loadforces over a greater area. If installed with the fly down you still have a greater surface area to transmit the load to the bottom section. Metal and fiberglass ladders, if approved by the manufacturer, can be used in either direction.”
STAY SAFE!
Sean,
Just few thoughts and I am not trying to argue your points, I am only looking for some clarification on your comments.
“To me the fly in on a standard fire service aluminum ladder is absolutely dead in the wrong”
-why would you limit yourself, it is nothing more than another tool for your box
“than to attempt to slide my brother firefighter up and over the bed section for a downed firefighter removal situation”
-the tips of each section are rounded over and protrude such a very minuscule distance that it would barely noticeable when making the transition from one section to another
“if I’m trying to make a rapid escape or a head first ladder slide I don’t want the “speed bump†of smashing into the bed section”
-the head first ladder slide was never intended to be ridden all the way to the ground head first, it was designed to get you clear of the window enough to allow you to rotate your body to a feet down position and complete the descent, the idea is control and with that in mind it would make little difference if the next section was in or out.
One last question…were your parents big John Wayne fans? stay safe
Hopefully, one day the Fire service will stand up and defend their practices to OSHA,NFPA,NIOSH,and every other agency that tries to govern how we do our job. Eric was only sharing a tip that works for him and his crew, all of a sudden it is an OSHA issue.
Maybe OSHA can investigate the ladder techniques AFTER the 4 yr old child is pulled from a 2nd floor bedroom. And maybe the ladder wasn’t thrown with the fly out and the bedroom was searched by a Firefighter without the protection of a hoseline (VES). Maybe he did not use an IFSTA manual approved Leg lock or a butt man at the foot of the ladder. Did he use an IFSTA manual approved encumbered climb while he was carrying his tools up the ladder ? Did he check the climbing angle with an IFSTA approved method , how about wind direction and a weather report from National Weather service.
This site is about people sharing information that works in real life on the real fireground. Information that may not gain the approval of all the groups and agencies that make up the Super Duper Safety Police Squad.
well said
I recently finished painting balance points on the ladders of our rigs, both the roofs and 24 extension ladders…I believe marking balance creates for a much quicker and effective carry when dealing with under-staffed or minimal personal. I just used a standard paint and marked simple 2 inch thick lines on the rails of the each side of the ladders to signify balance points…
Jaime,
As not to hijack this great posting and/or go back and forth I am simply going to attempt to clarify my original post. Everyone always seems to get up in arms at the words “Wrong” “can’t” “never” and I should know better than to use one of those “buzzwords” in these discussions! As for your questions:
– I am not limiting myself in any way. I am simply stating that to me and in my opinion, the negatives of a fly in aluminum fire-service ladder outweigh the positives. And I attempted to show those negatives. I also am a firm believer that this “fly-in vs. fly out” decision you make needs to be made and trained on well prior to the 3am people trapped job. Other than differing ladder types, I can’t see the advantage of changing this depending on the situation. That’s just me.
-Firefighter removal: The way my department practices firefighter removal is by bringing the downed member horizontally face down the ladder therby “riding” the ladder, and yes these rounded miniscule protrusions do cause a bit of a hinderance to the removal, especially within the first few feet of a window.
-Self rescue bailout: Two things: First thing remember if I’m using a 24 foot ladder to a 17 foot window sill the “transitional bump” from fly to bed will be located somewhere around the 3-4 foot from the window range on the ladder and indeed will be encountered during a head first bailout. Secondly know that if you have others that are beating feet out your ladder (we are extremely lucky to have 5 assigned to the truck here) the first to slide will hopefully be sliding to the bed section (or even to the ground) to allow the others behind be to get out, prior to “flipping” themselves around.
Great discussion, I hope I’m not muddying the waters here I just wanted to jump on my soap box a bit.
As for your final question Jaime, I have this as an answer, I’m sure you can guess it’s author:
“Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday.”
Stay safe!
Sean,
I respect your position, and I do not promote either fly direction. I was only playing the devil’s advocate.
“I also am a firm believer that this “fly-in vs. fly out†decision you make needs to be made and trained on well prior to the 3am people trapped job. Other than differing ladder types, I can’t see the advantage of changing this depending on the situation.”
Very true and fully agree with your statement. It seems to be more a geographical preference. Even when I worked in a small career department we trained for one-person raises and still placed the ladder with the fly out. Champ and I have discussed the possible benefits of raising and placing the fly in for understaffed truck work. I also agree that it should be one or the other, not this situation or that situation. We both know that keeping it simple creates smoother operations on the fireground.
The Duke could not have said it better…wait he did say that. Stay safe.
I think that you should just do whatever your SOP/SOG say to do. I would say that the balancing point should be marked and the lettering made the way your Department wants the ladders thrown (so that the letters can be read and are not upside down). If there is fire blowing out the window just get the thing up and get to work. If it is a safety ladder then throw it up the right way.
The thing I keep hearing here is the “right way”. What make the fly out the only “right way”. One of the two manufacturers state that the ladder can be placed either way, and the other does it at a minute reduction in load capacity. Several have cited OSHA variances allowing them to operate it that manner. Many west coast FD’s operate with the fly in, what makes them wrong? I know guys from both Seattle and Orlando, two top-notch outfits, and perform more than their share of fire duty, employing aggressive truck operations with a emphasis on laddering the fire building. They do it with the fly in. Who is anybody to say they are doing it the wrong way. Just because my job or yours doesn’t ladder this way, doesn’t make it wrong. As for SOP/SOG’s, there are many fire departments that do not utilize them.
Let’s go back up and read Shawn Steinert’s post again.
Be careful when working around (taping, painting, cleaning, etc.) the heat sensor stickers. As mentioned above, they are supposed to change color at a specific temperature, but they will also change if you rub them too hard during cleaning or prepping them for paint, leading to some false assumptions.
Whether you take one position or another is all fine and well but if you only pull the ladder off your apparatus one every 6-12 months you will be making up your own SOP at 3AM when it counts. Members must practice and practice can’t be good enough-it needs to be perfect so that when it counts your actions are as good as they can be. There is no reason a simple one-man throw cannot be performed at every firehouse or a the city yard (unless someone is worried about a little scratch in the paint on the ivory tower). Every member need to know why we do what we do and more importantly how to do when it counts. We can all tell one another what we know but do we show our company members what we know? To repeat an anonymous quote I believe in “Don’t train until you get it right-train until you can’t get it wrong.”
Since so many people are so willing to jump on the IFSTA manual bandwagon ( or which ever other manuals you may use), I figured I would go and pull some of them down off of the shelfs. We actually have 3 different manuals from 3 different publishers. 2 of them state that the ladder shall be placed in accordance with the manufacturers recomendations and the department’s sog. I guess they can’t ever be held liable for a mistake. The other states absolutely nothing more than an explanation as to what a fly section is. The funny thing is that they all state that a ladder should never be painted for any reason. So as far as the books are concerned, this just tells me to put the things up however you need to to get the job done. As for painting, we have had paint on our ladders in my department for as long as I’ve been there and thats coming up on 20 years. We have always been very strict about our ladder testing schedule and not once have the reps said anything about the paint having any kind of effect on the ladders performance.
Excellent tip for the benefit of all of us and if anyone has another method for marking your ladders, please share them too.
when placing roof ladders on your truck what do u prefer: hooks in towards the cab or hooks towards the rear? have run into the problem of a hook coming out and getting stuck inside the frame holding the ladders
My dept. places the ladders on the engine with the tips of the ladders toward the cab. We place the roof ladder on first though, and then the extension ladder. The idea behind this is that a ff needs the extension ladder to get to the roof in the first place, so that is the first one taken off. It also keeps the hooks behind the ladder in the event that they accidentally open up.
On our ladder trucks we actually do both. When sliding the longer roof ladders in (14 and 16 ft.) we put them in tips first. We also carry what we like to call parapet ladders. They are nothing more than an 8 and 10 ft roof ladder. We place these in foot first with the hooks intentionally left OPEN. This way the shorter ladders don’t slide all the way to the front of the ladder tunnel where we can’t reach them. They hook themselves onto the frame work and the other ladders so they don’t slide. If your hooks are opening up, you might want to have that checked, they usually lock into place. They shouldn’t be opening without pushing down on the hooks first. If they are freely opening, then they might freely close while they’re in use on a roof. That will get ugly.
Unless this was a one man raise, the fly is on the wrong side. Cool idea though!
Thanks Ciampo, for all the lessons! I had the opportunity to pass them on to a total of four different departments. That is over a thousand guys in a four month period at an old Holiday Inn. I even gave you some credit… 19 years and still learning.
Champ,
As always, a class act! Thanks for the tip brother!
What type of paint was used to paint the ladders?
If you do this at my dept, some dipshit chief will threaten to write you up unless you remove the paint because it is not NFPA compliant.. Even though we don’t follow 97.5% of NFPA suggestions..